Imagine if we had no imagination
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29-08-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 11:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 11:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  That is a very interesting question. I think you're right about chimps.
Trying to remember if I have ever seen video of any of the great apes "playing" other than "play fighting" or "play displaying" (banging a stick around),or even play mating? Learning social rules and the pecking order takes up a lot of the non-feeding or sleeping time.

The one I remember is termite fishing. Goodall has observed 9 different use of tools within a particular chimp population.




#sigh
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29-08-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
I can't.......I have no imagination.

What do you mean Life is short. It's the longest thing you're going to do.
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29-08-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 11:49 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 11:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  That is a very interesting question. I think you're right about chimps.
Trying to remember if I have ever seen video of any of the great apes "playing" other than "play fighting" or "play displaying" (banging a stick around),or even play mating? Learning social rules and the pecking order takes up a lot of the non-feeding or sleeping time.

I've seen videos of them stripping the leaves off of a thin limb. stick it down into an ant hole, wait for the ants to crawl onto it and then pull it out and eat the ants off. That means discovery of causal relationships. Give them a few hundred thousand years and they might be like us. Then they'll spend all their time arguing about religion.

Edit: Didn't see that someone had posted the video of the chimps using the stick to catch ants, doh!

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-08-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 12:01 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Give them a few hundred thousand years and they might be like us. Then they'll spend all their time arguing about religion.
Yeah, don't be so bloody unkind as to wish that on them!

Big Grin

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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29-08-2016, 02:22 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 12:54 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 12:01 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Give them a few hundred thousand years and they might be like us. Then they'll spend all their time arguing about religion.
Yeah, don't be so bloody unkind as to wish that on them!

Big Grin

Good god, men, don't you watch movies? They're going to rise up, and turn us all into slaves! The statue of liberty will be knocked over so that Charleton Heston can find it, realize he's on earth, and begin our revolution!

You people need to pay more attention to world affairs....Tongue
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29-08-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 02:22 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 12:54 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Yeah, don't be so bloody unkind as to wish that on them!

Big Grin

Good god, men, don't you watch movies? They're going to rise up, and turn us all into slaves! The statue of liberty will be knocked over so that Charleton Heston can find it, realize he's on earth, and begin our revolution!

You people need to pay more attention to world affairs....Tongue



Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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29-08-2016, 04:17 PM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
Imagination is linked with our ability to observe our surroundings, remember those surroundings from moment to moment and understanding that our surroundings change.

A ball is on a table. Someone pushes the ball and it rolls until it passes the edge of the table, falling to the ground.
We remember each phase of that scene. The ball resting on the table, a push causing it to move, the rolling of the ball on the table and it's eventual fall to the ground.

If we see the ball rolling on the table again, we remember what happened the last time. That memory of the ball falling will remain consistent because of the physics of the universe. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by another force.

As we constantly see the same things happening over and over again, instead of needing to observe what happens as the ball rolls across the table, we can refer to our memories of the past events and imagine what will happen when the ball reaches the edge of the table.

So imagination is our way of examining our memories to predict an outcome.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-08-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
(29-08-2016 04:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Imagination is linked with our ability to observe our surroundings, remember those surroundings from moment to moment and understanding that our surroundings change.

A ball is on a table. Someone pushes the ball and it rolls until it passes the edge of the table, falling to the ground.
We remember each phase of that scene. The ball resting on the table, a push causing it to move, the rolling of the ball on the table and it's eventual fall to the ground.

If we see the ball rolling on the table again, we remember what happened the last time. That memory of the ball falling will remain consistent because of the physics of the universe. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by another force.

As we constantly see the same things happening over and over again, instead of needing to observe what happens as the ball rolls across the table, we can refer to our memories of the past events and imagine what will happen when the ball reaches the edge of the table.

So imagination is our way of examining our memories to predict an outcome.
Some keeps nagging my mind, can't imagine what it is yet, that you are not correct there, Rahm.

You seem to be describing simply memory, in the form of a predictive film strip of known events, rather than a visualisation of the possibility that the ball will "fall" up rather than down when it reaches the edge of the table. Karl Popper had things to say about this IIRC.

Opening a door and finding the inside of the clothes closet, then remembering this is normal before doing it again, does not require imagination.

The ability to, mentally, open that door and find Narnia requires considerable imagination. Peopling Narnia, though based on known personality archetypes, requires imagination to "dress" those archetypes in imaginable clothes, manners, roles etc. Then we can imagine the, currently, non-existent, the novel; even the impossible-in-this-universe-as-we-know-it (Jim).

Chances are that 98% will be drawn or constructed from real, but "forgotten," life experience - but it will seem "new" to us in that form.

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30-08-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
I believe the best way to understand imagination is to experience it in its most exquisite form, lucid dreaming. With lucid dreaming in mind, one could reasonably conclude that our imagination works by creating a set of virtual objects and/or realities within our minds that we experience more or less the same way we experience reality.

I never quite know how best to introduce solipsism in discussions like these, but there you go, I just did. It seems relevant. Or maybe I'm just too lazy to finish my own thoughts. Whichever pleases the mind reading these words is fine by me.
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30-08-2016, 02:54 AM
RE: Imagine if we had no imagination
Having a bit if a strange prob with this tablet, causes double posting!

Cab't imagine what cayses it . . .

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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