Imagine there were no Evolution...
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08-12-2011, 09:27 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
I think that the release of Origin was definitely a great help for the civil rights movement. Just maybe not as it was happening. Yes there was revolution. But knowing thumpers as I do, they IMO would have been all over quelling that beast as soon as things got quiet once more. Like lions lying in wait. Whenever they hold a majority without opposition things tend to head south in a hurry. For evidence please refer to most everywhere else. People get upset and fight back, but without a continuous level of pressure and just the right circumstances, the battle tends to always fall back to the majority. We must disagree here old man. Or blood. Will. Be. Shed. Now. For. Pie.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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08-12-2011, 11:42 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(08-12-2011 08:58 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  All the 20th Century Science that Chas listed still happens without knowledge of Evolution.

No, it doesn't. Geology is a front line, practical science. Everyone likes geology 'cos its good for mining. As soon as you start doing geology you basically trip over evolutionary ideas. Biology is practical for agriculture. As soon as you start studying it scientifically evolutionary ideas start emerging. Unless you physically prevent people from studying these things scientifically, evolution theory will be discovered. The only reason they were not discovered earlier was (a) strange religious ideas (b) the philosophy of science and knowledge had not yet been worked out.

Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

If you think 20th century science would still be the same if Chemistry was still stuck in the dark ages of Alchemy, that's essentially what you're saying.

Smile Peace love and empathy, sorry for ripping into you Wink
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08-12-2011, 11:58 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 08:58 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  All the 20th Century Science that Chas listed still happens without knowledge of Evolution.

No, it doesn't. Geology is a front line, practical science. Everyone likes geology 'cos its good for mining. As soon as you start doing geology you basically trip over evolutionary ideas. Biology is practical for agriculture. As soon as you start studying it scientifically evolutionary ideas start emerging. Unless you physically prevent people from studying these things scientifically, evolution theory will be discovered. The only reason they were not discovered earlier was (a) strange religious ideas (b) the philosophy of science and knowledge had not yet been worked out.

Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

If you think 20th century science would still be the same if Chemistry was still stuck in the dark ages of Alchemy, that's essentially what you're saying.

Smile Peace love and empathy, sorry for ripping into you Wink

Did you rip into me? I missed it. I don't have anything at stake here. It's just an exercise in "what if?" But I do disagree again with the assertion that there's no science of geology. The science didn't start after 1868. Folks were already discovering fossils. I'm more at trying to get at, what would those geologist think as they were discovering the true age of the earth?
Again, posing the query is Evolution the only possible answer to the clues of the fossil record? Let's get some creativity stirred up. Smile

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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09-12-2011, 01:00 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(08-12-2011 11:58 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 08:58 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  All the 20th Century Science that Chas listed still happens without knowledge of Evolution.

No, it doesn't. Geology is a front line, practical science. Everyone likes geology 'cos its good for mining. As soon as you start doing geology you basically trip over evolutionary ideas. Biology is practical for agriculture. As soon as you start studying it scientifically evolutionary ideas start emerging. Unless you physically prevent people from studying these things scientifically, evolution theory will be discovered. The only reason they were not discovered earlier was (a) strange religious ideas (b) the philosophy of science and knowledge had not yet been worked out.

Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

If you think 20th century science would still be the same if Chemistry was still stuck in the dark ages of Alchemy, that's essentially what you're saying.

Smile Peace love and empathy, sorry for ripping into you Wink

Did you rip into me? I missed it. I don't have anything at stake here. It's just an exercise in "what if?" But I do disagree again with the assertion that there's no science of geology. The science didn't start after 1868. Folks were already discovering fossils. I'm more at trying to get at, what would those geologist think as they were discovering the true age of the earth?
Again, posing the query is Evolution the only possible answer to the clues of the fossil record? Let's get some creativity stirred up. Smile

OK no worries, I thought you might be demonstrating a bit of attachment to your ideas is all Tongue Too used to people gettin' huffy when I attempt to shaft them. Was attempting to shaft you gently...

Um... yes, evolution pretty much = truth. These are not hard ideas or principles to grasp. The hard part is confirming their correctness and actually doing the backup science, which Darwin et al did. You can blunder around a bit, but when you see fossils getting more complex in rocks which you hypothesize as younger (something which coal miners and others were familiar with), it's already leading you toward the idea that life evolves. When you see that all animals have roughly the same body plan, when you see that fossils are clearly recognizable as slightly different versions of animals alive or extinct... you'd have to be crazy if you didn't eventually come up with the idea that animals could gradually change, especially when you know that guided evolution (e.g. dog-breeding) is possible. Darwin's insight was also Natural selection - again, an idea which I contend would occur to someone thinking about these things and not bound by religious dogma.

I fail to see how another answer could be adopted as correct if we're allowed the full power of the scientific method (which you seem to say we are). Some discoveries may take longer, maybe some insights would be missing or different, but the broad theory would still come out roughly the same.
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09-12-2011, 02:53 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 01:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  OK no worries, I thought you might be demonstrating a bit of attachment to your ideas is all Tongue Too used to people gettin' huffy when I attempt to shaft them. Was attempting to shaft you gently...

Um... yes, evolution pretty much = truth. These are not hard ideas or principles to grasp. The hard part is confirming their correctness and actually doing the backup science, which Darwin et al did. You can blunder around a bit, but when you see fossils getting more complex in rocks which you hypothesize as younger (something which coal miners and others were familiar with), it's already leading you toward the idea that life evolves. When you see that all animals have roughly the same body plan, when you see that fossils are clearly recognizable as slightly different versions of animals alive or extinct... you'd have to be crazy if you didn't eventually come up with the idea that animals could gradually change, especially when you know that guided evolution (e.g. dog-breeding) is possible. Darwin's insight was also Natural selection - again, an idea which I contend would occur to someone thinking about these things and not bound by religious dogma.

I fail to see how another answer could be adopted as correct if we're allowed the full power of the scientific method (which you seem to say we are). Some discoveries may take longer, maybe some insights would be missing or different, but the broad theory would still come out roughly the same.

As long as you use lube, you'll hear less complaint out of me.

I think you pointed me in a good direction when you said with the scientific method the broad theory would still come out roughly the same. My fear is that it would revert back to the Ancient Alien Astronaut theories. Although, as a Christian who enjoyed a good UFO and Sci-Fi story as often as possible, those sorts of theories got me out of my Christian box, so it might still end up a world of some sort of atheist vs religionists. The internet will still be busy!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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09-12-2011, 03:25 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 02:53 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I think you pointed me in a good direction when you said with the scientific method the broad theory would still come out roughly the same. My fear is that it would revert back to the Ancient Alien Astronaut theories. Although, as a Christian who enjoyed a good UFO and Sci-Fi story as often as possible, those sorts of theories got me out of my Christian box, so it might still end up a world of some sort of atheist vs religionists. The internet will still be busy!

In a world without the scientific method... it's bad news. Part of the reason we're taking so long to learn about stuff is that we're helluva imperfect monkeys when it comes to reasoning. Evolution etc took long to be discovered because there were plenty of bullshit theories around and no one really knew how to differentiate between them - scientific method is a codified way of choosing a more correct theory...

But in a world such as e.g. the one where the ID guys win and evolution stops being taught full stop... they'd have to squash the scientific method and independent thought too, to really keep people down. Hard to do, but not impossible...

I also love sci-fi like that Smile
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09-12-2011, 08:03 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

I don't understand how you reach this conclusion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2011, 09:11 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 08:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

I don't understand how you reach this conclusion.

Meaning that for the advances in the other sciences that you quoted to happen (20th century science), people would have to stumble across the things which led to evolution theory. For example, unless your geology is *also* stuck in the dark ages, some evolutionary ideas are going to be raised.

But ja, it's just my totally biased opinion Tongue Feel free to disagree Wink
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09-12-2011, 09:41 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 09:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 08:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

I don't understand how you reach this conclusion.

Meaning that for the advances in the other sciences that you quoted to happen (20th century science), people would have to stumble across the things which led to evolution theory. For example, unless your geology is *also* stuck in the dark ages, some evolutionary ideas are going to be raised.

Oh, we agree that evolutionary theory would emerge; your wording confused me.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2011, 10:29 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 09:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 09:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 08:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 11:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Once you start thinking along those lines it's as easy as falling down stairs. 20th century science *could not* happen imo without the discovery of evolution theory. And to prevent that discovery you'd have to make major social changes.

I don't understand how you reach this conclusion.

Meaning that for the advances in the other sciences that you quoted to happen (20th century science), people would have to stumble across the things which led to evolution theory. For example, unless your geology is *also* stuck in the dark ages, some evolutionary ideas are going to be raised.

Oh, we agree that evolutionary theory would emerge; your wording confused me.

Sorry, I suck at wording sometimes Tongue
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