Imagine there were no Evolution...
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09-12-2011, 10:39 AM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
Dang Preacher...Tongue

The publication of John Graunt's Natural and Political Observations Made upon the Bills of Morality in 1662 inaugurated a climate of statistical inquiry into biological phenomena. From Volume 2 Companion Encyclopedia of the History & Philosophy of the Mathematical Sciences. I'm not just over here reading Kant, ya know. Evolution simply just ain't about Darwin and the nineteenth century, it is about trends in science. Tongue

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09-12-2011, 12:08 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 10:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm not just over here reading Kant, ya know.

What's that you say, Johnny Kantor? I Kant hear you?

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09-12-2011, 02:25 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 12:08 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 10:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm not just over here reading Kant, ya know.

What's that you say, Johnny Kantor? I Kant hear you?

Who? Did some one say, crank the Who?





Background music for the Preach's creationism. Wink

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09-12-2011, 02:41 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
If evolution would not exist the whole world would be as inbred as the Vatican and the RC-church...

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09-12-2011, 05:05 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
Let's change this a bit. Let's remove Darwin AND remove religion. Evolutionary theory would have appeared before Darwin's time because people would not be living in fear of the church's shadow and been free to bring up theories without being persecuted, tortured and or executed.

There was a contemporary of Darwin (who's name escapes me) who was working on the same stuff that Darwin was. When this contemporary realized that what he was discovering clashed with his religious beliefs he quit his studies in favor of the church. I very much doubt if he was unusual since people are, to this day, leaving their chosen fields because of clashes with religious beliefs.

The basic reason for the theory of evolution is that there are billions of pieces of evidence to support it, and more pieces of evidence are uncovered daily. There are no pieces of evidence that support other possibilities. This is why evolution is the only viable theory. Darwin didn't make anything up about it. He observed and wrote about his observations. Many others would have observed and not written down their observations (some because of fear of the church and some because they weren't inspired to write).

Creationism has never had a single shred of evidence to support it. The fact that so many people believe in creationism is a demonstration of the psychological power that religion has over people.

As for imagining a world with creationism as the leading theory of how we got here, I would rather not. It would be an extremely repressed world where evidence and truth meant nothing and blind faith with no evidence meant everything. I would rather be a Jew in Germany in World War 2. At least I would know that there was sanity somewhere.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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09-12-2011, 05:46 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
That's where I keep getting stuck - the absolute lack of science in creation science. Wink

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09-12-2011, 05:54 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 05:05 PM)No J. Wrote:  Let's change this a bit. Let's remove Darwin AND remove religion. Evolutionary theory would have appeared before Darwin's time because people would not be living in fear of the church's shadow and been free to bring up theories without being persecuted, tortured and or executed.

Ah, yes, I like this twist. If there had been no religion, how much sooner would we have discovered our origins? Most assuredly before Darwin, but how much more?

Next question, how far back do you go to remove religion? Are we just talking about the Judeo/Christian/Islam era, or do we go back to humanity never having any sort of evolution toward spiritual belief? So no Sumerian gods, Greek, Norse, Hindu, Chinese, and ad nauseum? Where would we be today with the earth never having been exposed to religion?

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09-12-2011, 05:59 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
How much earlier, asks the Preach...

In many respects, the general idea of species transformism is an old concept. The reflections of Empedocles (ca. 495–35 BCE) and the views of the Greek Atomists among the Presocratic nature philosophers formed a historical resource for later speculations. These Presocratic speculations combined naturalistic myths of origins with the workings of chance-like processes to create a naturalistic account of the origins of existing forms of life.

However, these accounts were also opposed on several levels by the subsequent mainstream Greek philosophical tradition. The writings of Plato (427–327 BCE) included his long creation myth, Timaeus, the one Platonic dialogue available continuously in the Latin Western tradition. This presented a locus classicus for the notion of an externally-imposed origin of living beings through the action of a Craftsman (demiourgos) who created the cosmos and all living beings in accord with eternal archetypes or forms, realizing through this both aesthetic and rational ends. Plato's account initiated the long tradition of reflection that later interacted with the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic Biblical concepts of creation. These formed the foundation for the conclusion that organic beings were the product of external creative design. One common meaning of “teleology” as encountered in discussions of evolution since Darwin—that of externally imposed design by an intelligent agency (demiurge, nature, God)—dates from Plato's account.

In Aristotle's (384–322 BCE) seminal biological writings, the external teleology of a designer-creator was replaced by an internal teleological purposiveness associated with the immanent action of an internal cause—in living beings the soul (psuche)— which functioned as the formal, final and efficient cause of life (De anima II:415b 10–30). Aristotle did not endorse the concept of an historical origin of the world, affirming instead the eternity of the world order. The metaphysical requirement that the soul-as-form (eidos) be permanent and enduring through the process of the generation of “like by like” also seemed for much of the subsequent tradition to amount to a denial of the possibility that natural species could change over time in their essential properties, even though local adaptation in “accidental” properties was fully possible. Since individual beings were dynamic composites of a material substrate and an immaterial and eternal form (eidos), the accidental differentiation of the substantial form in individuals did not affect the metaphysical endurance of the species. In living beings, the soul-as-form is serially passed on through time in the act of generation to create an eternal continuity of the form. This supplied a metaphysical foundation for the notion of species permanence without reliance on an external creative agency (De anima II: 415b 1–10). Challenges have, however, been raised to the claim that Aristotle was such a strong “essentialist” in his biology as this might seem to imply (Lennox 1987).

That much earlier, responds the Plato. Big Grin

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09-12-2011, 06:00 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
(09-12-2011 05:05 PM)No J. Wrote:  Let's change this a bit. Let's remove Darwin AND remove religion. Evolutionary theory would have appeared before Darwin's time because people would not be living in fear of the church's shadow and been free to bring up theories without being persecuted, tortured and or executed.

There was a contemporary of Darwin (who's name escapes me) who was working on the same stuff that Darwin was. When this contemporary realized that what he was discovering clashed with his religious beliefs he quit his studies in favor of the church. I very much doubt if he was unusual since people are, to this day, leaving their chosen fields because of clashes with religious beliefs.

The basic reason for the theory of evolution is that there are billions of pieces of evidence to support it, and more pieces of evidence are uncovered daily. There are no pieces of evidence that support other possibilities. This is why evolution is the only viable theory. Darwin didn't make anything up about it. He observed and wrote about his observations. Many others would have observed and not written down their observations (some because of fear of the church and some because they weren't inspired to write).

Creationism has never had a single shred of evidence to support it. The fact that so many people believe in creationism is a demonstration of the psychological power that religion has over people.

Evolutionary thinking did appear before Charles Darwin. His grandfather, Erasmus Darwin, was one who thought of evolution. Charles's genius lay in the combination of mechanism and data.

Darwin's (slightly younger) contemporary was Alfred Wallace who had a less well-formed or supported theory of evolution by natural selectioon.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2011, 06:04 PM
RE: Imagine there were no Evolution...
HoC, I was thinking, wow, that's one of your more coherent posts ever...
Then I realized you were quoting.
Oh well, you still showed some sanity in finding the article to share. Big Grin

Thanks for sharing some of my favorite background music.

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