Imagine...
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23-10-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 11:17 AM)Julius Wrote:  I suggest a few of you on this topic go actually watch someone die...it's an enlightening experience that will teach you to appreciate life and not fear death so much. There are plenty of Hospice organizations around, and I'm sure that a few of them accept volunteers.

When someone dies via Hospice, it's always a struggle at the last. The disorientation, the loss of conciousness, the labored breathing, the color change, the beginning of the death rattle, the dried morphine inside their lips....the cessation of breathing - that's pretty much the order of things. I've seen it happen 4 times and have never seen any fear or panic - although I have seen disorientation and confusion as the blood is slowly polluted after the kidneys shut down (I hear it's the build-up of amonia). Anyways...dying is not what it's portrayed like in Hollywood, and it's not mystical either.

I agree and was going to ask the people who are so scared of death if they had ever witnessed it.

I wouldn't call it a struggle as at the time the body appears to be going through a lot of these things without the mind actually participating anymore. I don't know about morphine, never saw anyone who was on morphine. But yes, confusion - the mind seems to gradually disconnect from reality. And that is what I meant by the world not existing anymore, when the attempt to deal with the outside world ceases but the brain still works. The threshhold of the great unknown.

Personally, I am not scared. I am curious.

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23-10-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: Imagine...
Having just witnessed the peaceful death of my mother, this question resonates.

I think I would be experiencing three things:
  • A detached curiosity at what was going on, the shutting down of my brain and mind;
  • A profound sadness that I won't get to see what's next, to learn more;
  • And possibly relief that the pain is over.

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23-10-2012, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 01:18 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 09:55 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Frankly the fear is the only thing that keeps me alive when I contemplate suicide. ...

And right now...fear is good. It keeps me breathing. Thumbsup

... But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all

Erx! Put down that bare bodkin... right NOW!


For me, it's a little like this...
Leaving the house on the way to the airport: cash, yes, passport, yes, condoms, check, phone, oh fuck, go back? taxi waiting, yes be quick.
Half way to the airport: why do still have the feeling I've forgotten something.. cash, ok, passport, check, laptop, check, phone, check, cufflinks, shit! go back? no but that's annoying.
At the airport: fuck it, I've forgotten my book.
On the plane: Sleeeeep

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23-10-2012, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 01:14 PM by Vera.)
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 09:55 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Now the dirty little secret:
As an atheist, I'm scared shitless to think about that final breath. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. Will my thoughts be curious? Will I look forward to dark oblivion? Or will I have the doubt that you attributed to a dying Christian? What if I was wrong? What if hell is awaiting me because of my callous rejection of God's beautiful Truth?

Unfortuantley, because of my clinical depression, I spent nearly two hours thinking about this last night. Frankly the fear is the only thing that keeps me alive when I contemplate suicide. I was past the cares of the world. I know death affects those left behind, but I also know people get over it and move on. I was actually more concerned about what would happen to my dog Snuffy...so I guess I wasn't completely over the cares of the world. Undecided
A few months ago, I had a dream that I shot myself in the head. In the dream, my last thoughts and feelings were of my mind slipping away into a warm, dark, peaceful oblivion. It felt positive, it felt perfect. I hope that is what death is like. But I fear it is more about pain and fear and regret and more fear again.

One of the reasons why I find your "dirty little secret" interesting, is that the most suicidal I've ever been was when I was losing my religion - I felt like there was no reason to live as I knew it/god was slipping away from me and it all looked very bleak and lonely.

However, while I've been suicidal as an atheist, too, it's never been nearly as severe and it's not because now I'm afraid of death more than I was when I was a believer; rather, I'm convinced that this life is all I'll ever have and even if it sucks a lot of the time, nothingness will come pretty soon, anyway, so what's the rush... if I may quote Tom Stoppard “Dying is not romantic, and death is not a game which will soon be over... Death is not anything... death is not... It's the absence of presence, nothing more... the endless time of never coming back... a gap you can't see, and when the wind blows through it, it makes not sound...”

On a side note, when I was a believer, there was nothing that scared me more than the idea of eternity (and I'm talking eternity in Heaven, I never believed in Hell - could never imagine an all-loving god condemning anyone to eternal suffering... if the idea's unbearable to a human, how can it be acceptable to a perfect being like god?). Just thinking about it, no end, ever made me want to scream in terror.

I know there are quite a few Tolkien fans here, so I think it's appropriate that a poem of his sums up how I feel about death (at least how I feel about it now, when I think it's still decades away from me)

"I sit beside the fire and think of all that I have seen,
of meadow-flowers and butterflies in summers that have been;
Of yellow leaves and gossamer in autumns that there were,
with morning mist and silver sun and wind upon my hair.
I sit beside the fire and think of how the world will be
when winter comes without a spring that I shall ever see.


For still there are so many things that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring there is a different green.
I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,
and people who will see a world that I shall never know.

But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door."

Hmm, I think I went on a bit too long, sorry about that Sad

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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23-10-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 01:06 PM)Vera Wrote:  I know there are quite a few Tolkien fans here, so I think it's appropriate that a poem of his sums up how I feel about death (at least how I feel about now, when I think it's still decades years away from me)

"I sit beside the fire and think of all that I have seen,
of meadow-flowers and butterflies in summers that have been;
Of yellow leaves and gossamer in autumns that there were,
with morning mist and silver sun and wind upon my hair.
I sit beside the fire and think of how the world will be
when winter comes without a spring that I shall ever see.


For still there are so many things that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring there is a different green.
I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,
and people who will see a world that I shall never know.

But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door."

Hmm, I think I went on a bit too long, sorry about that Sad

Not too long at all. I was especially touched by the poem. (DLJ's too, but let's not let him know as his head is large enough as it is.) Tongue

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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23-10-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 12:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 09:55 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Frankly the fear is the only thing that keeps me alive when I contemplate suicide. ...

And right now...fear is good. It keeps me breathing. Thumbsup

... But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all

Erx! Put down that bare bodkin... right NOW!


For me, it's a little like this...
Leaving the house on the way to the airport: cash, yes, passport, yes, condoms, check, phone, oh fuck, go back? taxi waiting, yes be quick.
Half way to the airport: why do still have the feeling I've forgotten something.. cash, ok, passport, check, laptop, check, phone, check, cufflinks, shit! go back? no but that's annoying.
At the airport: fuck it, I've forgotten my book.
On the plane: Sleeeeep

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-10-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 01:12 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 01:06 PM)Vera Wrote:  I know there are quite a few Tolkien fans here, so I think it's appropriate that a poem of his sums up how I feel about death (at least how I feel about now, when I think it's still decades years away from me)

"I sit beside the fire and think of all that I have seen,
of meadow-flowers and butterflies in summers that have been;
Of yellow leaves and gossamer in autumns that there were,
with morning mist and silver sun and wind upon my hair.
I sit beside the fire and think of how the world will be
when winter comes without a spring that I shall ever see.


For still there are so many things that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring there is a different green.
I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,
and people who will see a world that I shall never know.

But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door."

Hmm, I think I went on a bit too long, sorry about that Sad

Not too long at all. I was especially touched by the poem. (DLJ's too, but let's not let him know as his head is large enough as it is.) Tongue

Hello! I can read y'know.

I see, too, the parallel between Shakespeare's "undiscover'd country" and Tolkien's "Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."

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23-10-2012, 01:35 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 01:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 01:12 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Not too long at all. I was especially touched by the poem. (DLJ's too, but let's not let him know as his head is large enough as it is.) Tongue

Hello! I can read y'know.

I see, too, the parallel between Shakespeare's "undiscover'd country" and Tolkien's "Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."

Tolkien, however, was a devout Catholic, so he would be expecting a far green country, something along these lines, I'm guessing:



("As I'm taking my last breath, I know what I'll see
There'll be green waves forever out there waiting for me")

I, on the other hand, can see a parallel between your Hamlet and my Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead Wink

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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23-10-2012, 01:41 PM
RE: Imagine...
(23-10-2012 01:26 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 01:12 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Not too long at all. I was especially touched by the poem. (DLJ's too, but let's not let him know as his head is large enough as it is.) Tongue

Hello! I can read y'know.

I see, too, the parallel between Shakespeare's "undiscover'd country" and Tolkien's "Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."

oops how embarrassing. I thought you were asleep on the plane. Blush

This is my favorite morbid death poem:


It was many and many a year ago,
In a kingdom by the sea,
That a maiden there lived whom you may know
By the name of ANNABEL LEE;
And this maiden she lived with no other thought
Than to love and be loved by me.

I was a child and she was a child,
In this kingdom by the sea;
But we loved with a love that was more than love-
I and my Annabel Lee;
With a love that the winged seraphs of heaven
Coveted her and me.

And this was the reason that, long ago,
In this kingdom by the sea,
A wind blew out of a cloud, chilling
My beautiful Annabel Lee;
So that her highborn kinsman came
And bore her away from me,
To shut her up in a sepulchre
In this kingdom by the sea.

The angels, not half so happy in heaven,
Went envying her and me-
Yes!- that was the reason (as all men know,
In this kingdom by the sea)
That the wind came out of the cloud by night,
Chilling and killing my Annabel Lee.

But our love it was stronger by far than the love
Of those who were older than we-
Of many far wiser than we-
And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.

For the moon never beams without bringing me dreams
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And the stars never rise but I feel the bright eyes
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And so, all the night-tide, I lie down by the side
Of my darling- my darling- my life and my bride,
In the sepulchre there by the sea,
In her tomb by the sounding sea.


Edgar Allan Poe

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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23-10-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Imagine...
I'd be bored, wondering was it was taking so long.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

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