Immorality & Atheism
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18-05-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Immorality & Atheism
The notion that atheists are immoral because they claim godlessness is tripe. There is no reason to suggest that a person is immoral because they don't believe a certain god, or any gods exist. Such a conclusion is hopelessly illogical: where's the connective tissue between the propositions "I don't believe in God/gods" and "disbelievers are immoral"? Something has to fit between those two propositions, otherwise concluding disbelief equals immorality is a categorical confusion and a lackluster syllogism, at best.

At worst, the implication that people can only be moral if they believe in a God/gods makes believers terribly dangerous people to associate with: are they suggesting that it's only their belief that restrains them from psychopathic rampages, and all manner of hideous crimes?

And what are we to make of pre-Judaic times, before the alleged giving of the 10 Commandments? Were people just given to their impulses with no thought to consequences? Were human beings wantonly viscious with no capacity for restraint until God burned a few words in stone? The fact is: people are moral despite their beliefs, and even without beliefs, because morality is part of our organising instincts and our efforts to promote the survival of ourselves and others.

Your morality is not a cape you are given by some God; it is part of your human composition and does not depend a whit on what brand of religion you choose to adopt.
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18-05-2011, 01:30 AM
RE: Immorality & Atheism
What? You call yourself an atheist and you don't eat babies?? I prefer mine barbequed with lots of Frank's Red Hot Sauce. I put that shit on everything.

Humour aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Well said, sir.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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18-05-2011, 02:02 AM
 
RE: Immorality & Atheism
(18-05-2011 01:30 AM)hotrodmike Wrote:  What? You call yourself an atheist and you don't eat babies?? I prefer mine barbequed with lots of Frank's Red Hot Sauce. I put that shit on everything.

Humour aside, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Well said, sir.
A little sweet and sour sauce is all I need Smile
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18-05-2011, 03:26 AM
RE: Immorality & Atheism
What most religious people can't seem to grasp is the simple fact that morality is based on the context.
Take the absorbing of nutrients for instance.
Not immoral.
Absorbing nutrients from eating babies however... (I still think this is one of the funniest myths surrounding atheism I ever heard. I seriously doubt weather there is a large group of theists actually believing that)

The text below is my speculation:
Most theistic people take their moral context from "the word of god" in their concious thinking. Now, since atheists don't accept the word of god, they automatically become immoral from that statement. What most indoctrinated people don't seem to get is that thy don't take the word of god for context, but the "teaching" of the word of god. Where teaching is just the interpretation of holy books by their religious peers and leaders. You can clearly hear this in debates where a theist says he gets his morals from the bible, but rejects the slavery, rape and virginity offers described in the OT. They already seem to KNOW that such things are bad. Combine that perspective with indoctrination of fear and some serious polarisation between opposing groups and you get to an "atheists are immoral statement".

Side-note 1:
My morality comes not from my standpoint as "not an in god believer" but from my humanistic point of view. In that sense the "atheism" layer of my identity is indeed not-moral.

Side-note 2:
Babies are best when slowly shimmered in beef-stock/rosemary sauce and served with baked potatoes or rösty accompanied with a glass of fruity red wine or dark ale. Smile

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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18-05-2011, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2011 04:05 AM by Filox.)
RE: Immorality & Atheism
No, no, babys are best when put under "the bell", don't know exactly how to translate it, so here is the picture...

[Image: Gastro-peka.jpg]

These are babies with potatoes...

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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18-05-2011, 04:11 AM
RE: Immorality & Atheism
(18-05-2011 04:00 AM)Filox Wrote:  No, no, babys are best when put under "the bell",
/*off topic/
That DOES look tasty
Traditional Hrvaskan cooking?
/off topic*/

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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18-05-2011, 08:14 AM
RE: Immorality & Atheism
Atheists are immoral. Sorry guys.

If morality is absolute, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are therefore immoral.

If moraity is culturally relative, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are, in terms of the people accusing you of immorality, immoral.

Atheists are not moral because Atheism makes no claims pertaining to morality, or anything else for that matter, therefore Atheists are immoral.

Atheists are not amoral because those claiming to be moral are not suggesting that there is no such thing as moral and immoral.

If you eliminate the impossible then whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. Because Atheists are not moral and because they're not amoral, then the only possiblity is that they are immoral.

Sorry guys. Check and mate.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-05-2011, 08:53 AM
RE: Immorality & Atheism
(18-05-2011 08:14 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Atheists are immoral. Sorry guys.

If morality is absolute, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are therefore immoral.

If moraity is culturally relative, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are, in terms of the people accusing you of immorality, immoral.

Atheists are not moral because Atheism makes no claims pertaining to morality, or anything else for that matter, therefore Atheists are immoral.

Atheists are not amoral because those claiming to be moral are not suggesting that there is no such thing as moral and immoral.

If you eliminate the impossible then whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. Because Atheists are not moral and because they're not amoral, then the only possiblity is that they are immoral.

Sorry guys. Check and mate.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I have to disagree with you ghost. Morality exists from individual to individual and those morals are influenced by society and culture. I draw my morality from everything I learned growing up and the laws and customs of the society around me. I do not harm others because I do not want to bring harm upon myself. I do not steal from others because I do not want things stolen from me. Morals are inherently selfish principles where we protect ourselves from others by agreeing with the group mentality and abiding by it.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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18-05-2011, 11:00 AM
 
RE: Immorality & Atheism
(18-05-2011 08:14 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Atheists are immoral. Sorry guys.

If morality is absolute, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are therefore immoral.

If moraity is culturally relative, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are, in terms of the people accusing you of immorality, immoral.

Atheists are not moral because Atheism makes no claims pertaining to morality, or anything else for that matter, therefore Atheists are immoral.

Atheists are not amoral because those claiming to be moral are not suggesting that there is no such thing as moral and immoral.

If you eliminate the impossible then whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. Because Atheists are not moral and because they're not amoral, then the only possiblity is that they are immoral.

Sorry guys. Check and mate.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Wait, Trolling or just stupid?

1. Morals are not absolute, this is clear on both sides. Lets take Christianity as an example, I highly doubt anyone practices the morals taught in the old testament anymore, you know stoning children and all that because morals changed and we realized maybe it wasn't the most moral thing to do.

2. If its cultural then both sides are immoral to the other, like how me being a Canadian have a serious moral issue with cannibalism yet secluded tribes still practice it today.

3. This statement makes no sense at all. I can say Christens are immoral because having faith lets mass murderers and child rapists into heaven, so why be moral when you can just repent and get a free pass?

4/5. Just jumps to the idea that atheists are immoral based on, uh, absolutely nothing. I can make the exact same claim about anyone or thing and it will wouldn't be valid. Atheist are not immoral just because you say so.

I should have checked your previous posts to tell if your statements above are your honest opinion and you are not just joking but to late for that, time to press the post button!
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18-05-2011, 11:44 AM
 
RE: Immorality & Atheism
(18-05-2011 08:14 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Atheists are immoral. Sorry guys.

If morality is absolute, then you do not subscribe to the morality of scripture and are therefore immoral...
Sorry guys. Check and mate.
You obviously play Checkers. Tongue

I'll give Matt the benefit of the doubt in thinking he's not trolling, and instead see this as his playing the Devil's advocate as to how Theists would argue the point.



Going on the premise that morality is defined as conforming to right conduct.

The thing about morality is, it isn't universal. If it isn't universal then it isn't something that is exclusively bestowed by any god, in a polytheistic populace such as that which resides on this planet among the countless faiths that are adhered to far and wide.

On the other talon, if morality is thought to be an absolute by definition alone, then it certainly is precluded from being bestowed by any religions Deity, or the faith in same, because every alleged supreme being of every faith on earth has demonstrated itself to be immoral.
Ergo, an alleged higher power can not bestow upon a lesser consciousness that what it is in deficit of. Nor, can faith in that alleged higher power that demonstrates of itself immorality, inspire or impart moral character into the worshiper because that what they worship is immoral and as such one can not take inspiration by it's example of that, a means of finding one's own moral center.

Consequently, atheists are just like anyone else. They are decent or they're not. They're moral, by definition, or they're not. Morality isn't bestowed by a higher power because a higher power has never yet been proven to exist. This is why faith precludes fact. But what is fact is that morality, by human definition, does exist it is so because we witness it among the various cultures across the globe. And in witnessing that we also see that morality is not universal. It's strictly observably human, first. All else, in matters of it's bestowal by a Deity, is illusion. Then again, so is Deity. Wink
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