Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
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07-10-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 03:06 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(07-10-2012 02:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  American Fundamentalism is somewhat unique in Christianity, when they say a position of un-belief is a moral failing, or "rebellion". It's why they get SO worked up about what they call the "New ('militant') Atheism".
They operate on the assumption that we've (already) "heard the good news", and "rejected the good news". If there IS no real choice, then it ain't "good news". If I MUST accept it, there is no choice.

If i have a debate on this issue with a RC her in germany, i will receive the same argument of being a "rebell" against god and his moral, as well as you in the states.
The viewpoint of theists on this is pretty much the same all over the world.
So much for your unique American Fundis.
The difference to the states is, if the RC let this out in public, he will earn a big outburst of laughter.

I've been to dinner with my grandfather and a few cardinals, in Rome. We talked about the long history in Europe of "free thinkers", and agnosticism in Italy, and England. Maybe Germany is as bad as the US. It was not my experience there.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-10-2012, 03:52 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 03:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I've been to dinner with my grandfather and a few cardinals, in Rome. We talked about the long history in Europe of "free thinkers", and agnosticism in Italy, and England. Maybe Germany is as bad as the US. It was not my experience there.
To have a dinner in a friendly atmospher is hardly compare to an dispute with a RC or any other theist when it comes to the denial of god.
Maybe the cardinals have talked about free-thinking, but give them the power to make the rules, and you will find yourself back in the dark age.
That is the difference, like i said in my post above, between europe and the USA.
But there viewpoint is the same.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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07-10-2012, 03:58 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 03:52 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(07-10-2012 03:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I've been to dinner with my grandfather and a few cardinals, in Rome. We talked about the long history in Europe of "free thinkers", and agnosticism in Italy, and England. Maybe Germany is as bad as the US. It was not my experience there.
To have a dinner in a friendly atmospher is hardly compare to an dispute with a RC or any other theist when it comes to the denial of god.
Maybe the cardinals have talked about free-thinking, but give them the power to make the rules, and you will find yourself back in the dark age.
That is the difference, like i said in my post above, between europe and the USA.
But there viewpoint is the same.

Baloney. You don't know them. You can't judge them as an entire class of people. This one would not. ---->>>
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/world/...at-85.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-10-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 03:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Baloney. You don't know them. You can't judge them as an entire class of people. This one would not. ---->>>

I have read this article befor.
You are right, one should not judge a person without knowing his work or words.
Thats not what i have done.
It is a well known fact that the pope Benedikt XVI, a hardliner in got's behalf, want to establish the RC as the one and only christian church in the world.
He claimed this in serval speechs and letters.
And the cardinal's have no way to speak against this.
And they would do it anyway, why should they?
The german cardinal's had have a meeting last month and they thought about the femal-position in the church and the re-married people and some other stuff.
But they could not decide anything at all, because they have to ask the pontiff.

Let me do a little prophecy here; we both will face the Renaissance of faith in the whole world.
The churches will be filled beyond the point of burst.
It will be driven by fear for the islamisation of our countrys.
Thats the reason why your next president will not be Mr. Obama.
At the end of this decade we will have a War of Religion.
I am sincerely hope i am wrong by that, but i dont think so.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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07-10-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 08:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ed, (Egor), is actually saying more than "we have consciousness". He's asserting a "cosmic" consciousness. That's his (current) belief.

I don't mean to misrepresent his views. The important part to glean from my statement was that Egor didn't view souls the same way that I had defined them, so my argument about souls wasn't really directed at his belief.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-10-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 03:11 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  QualiaSoup just uploaded a new video deal specifically with the problem of Dualism. I think it might be relevant here.




Great video. Can you ask Near to put it in the Resource thread ? Thkx.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-10-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(07-10-2012 04:52 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Let me do a little prophecy here; we both will face the Renaissance of faith in the whole world.
The churches will be filled beyond the point of burst.
It will be driven by fear for the islamisation of our countrys.
Thats the reason why your next president will not be Mr. Obama.
At the end of this decade we will have a War of Religion.
I am sincerely hope i am wrong by that, but i dont think so.

If your prophesy is accurate, it's a long-range view. It's almost guaranteed that Mr. Obama will remain our president... name recognition means a lot more to election than the candidate's religion. Sitting presidents rarely get deposed. Currently, Obama is far ahead in the polls, and that's not likely to change in a month.

And the fear of "islamisation" hasn't yet increased the size of other churches. In fact, they're decreasing (while Islam increases). So why do you expect your non-existent pattern to suddenly emerge?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-10-2012, 12:25 AM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
Currently the traditional idea of soul seems very unlikely and all other definitions seem unverifiable. Not believing is therefore the natural position.

I do however cultivate the discipline of meditation, mindfulness and inner communion. With what? With something that seems to be a higher part of my personality, or perhaps if I get all esoteric, a higher being that my personality is a lower reflection of. This according to some traditions is THE soul.
I simply try to go along the lines as if it really was something, to see if it really is something.

It is not an easy task, "the soul" is not always present and active. But when it is, it exerts a very powerful psychologic influence, embodying the best personal qualities I have or could have. In comparison with "the soul", my personality is phoney. I am ready to believe that we are kind of a biologic automatons that can even be simulated. Because under the experience of the soul I realized that the personality, the ego is a coating over the bare cogs and gears of the neurologic machine. The ego is fake, it's not what it tries to look like it is. And it was not a nice experience to see that.

They say, always be yourself, but be your best self, not your worst self. For me this is exactly what it means, a very specific thing.

The perception of a soul as a distinct experience started once during meditation. I had a feeling that something loves me. Months or so later this feeling appeared during daytime, again the feeling of being loved, deeply and unconditionally, by something like a presence in my mind, but a very impersonal one.
Eventually this feeling was shifted, then it wasn't me who was loved, but I was the one feeling love, towards everything around and nothing in particular. This feeling appeared about once or twice per year, for days and even weeks, I woke up with it in the morning and went to sleep like that in the evening. Needless to say, it had a profound effect on me and my attitude towards others. Such an experience changes you, it says very clearly that love is not a privilege, it's our duty and necessity, or at least good will is.

I know it sounds cheesy, but it was also very impersonal. It kind of puts us into perspective what's important and what isn't. It also suggests where all these religious people are coming from, it's easy to imagine that they think it's Jesus. Me being an atheist, it was quite abstract. But it's interesting to see other people who went through something similar, such a distinct experience leaves marks. And they're not just religious people. It seems to me that this kind of experience weaves as a red thread across the history and literature.

I'm looking forward to the day when the psychologic science catches up with us. I mean, not with what brain centers do it, but with some creative outlet. Otherwise people like us will become spiritual, if not outright religious.
Also, anyone who might have experienced something similar, is welcome to send me a message.
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08-10-2012, 12:46 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 12:51 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(08-10-2012 12:25 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Currently the traditional idea of soul seems very unlikely and all other definitions seem unverifiable. Not believing is therefore the natural position.

I do however cultivate the discipline of meditation, mindfulness and inner communion. With what? With something that seems to be a higher part of my personality, or perhaps if I get all esoteric, a higher being that my personality is a lower reflection of. This according to some traditions is THE soul.
I simply try to go along the lines as if it really was something, to see if it really is something.

It is not an easy task, "the soul" is not always present and active. But when it is, it exerts a very powerful psychologic influence, embodying the best personal qualities I have or could have. In comparison with "the soul", my personality is phoney. I am ready to believe that we are kind of a biologic automatons that can even be simulated. Because under the experience of the soul I realized that the personality, the ego is a coating over the bare cogs and gears of the neurologic machine. The ego is fake, it's not what it tries to look like it is. And it was not a nice experience to see that.

They say, always be yourself, but be your best self, not your worst self. For me this is exactly what it means, a very specific thing.

The perception of a soul as a distinct experience started once during meditation. I had a feeling that something loves me. Months or so later this feeling appeared during daytime, again the feeling of being loved, deeply and unconditionally, by something like a presence in my mind, but a very impersonal one.
Eventually this feeling was shifted, then it wasn't me who was loved, but I was the one feeling love, towards everything around and nothing in particular. This feeling appeared about once or twice per year, for days and even weeks, I woke up with it in the morning and went to sleep like that in the evening. Needless to say, it had a profound effect on me and my attitude towards others. Such an experience changes you, it says very clearly that love is not a privilege, it's our duty and necessity, or at least good will is.

I know it sounds cheesy, but it was also very impersonal. It kind of puts us into perspective what's important and what isn't. It also suggests where all these religious people are coming from, it's easy to imagine that they think it's Jesus. Me being an atheist, it was quite abstract. But it's interesting to see other people who went through something similar, such a distinct experience leaves marks. And they're not just religious people. It seems to me that this kind of experience weaves as a red thread across the history and literature.

I'm looking forward to the day when the psychologic science catches up with us. I mean, not with what brain centers do it, but with some creative outlet. Otherwise people like us will become spiritual, if not outright religious.
Also, anyone who might have experienced something similar, is welcome to send me a message.

Science has caught up with meditation, mainly because Buddhist monks are so willing to help out scientists by donating their brains. There are atheists (and scientists) that push meditation, such as Sam Harris. However, the scientific consensus agrees that there is nothing supernatural behind the act, but that the feelings it causes spring from a literal re-wiring of the brain through practice.

The supernatural aspect of the soul is what's being debated here. If you redefine the soul (such as making it synonymous with feelings of transcendentalism) then I may agree that it exists, but I don't see the usefulness of belief in such a "soul" for the purposes of proving God, heaven, or eternal life.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-10-2012, 06:09 AM
RE: Debunking "Souls"

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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