Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
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08-10-2012, 07:24 AM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(08-10-2012 06:09 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  But these is like the Evolution, its just a theory.

No. There are "theories", and there are "theories".
"Just a theory" is the typical pejorative way Evolution deniers refer to a scientific theory which has attained the status of "fact-hood".

As Dr. Jerry Coyne, of the University of Chicago says, (in reference to Evolution), : "It is a fact. That is, it is an assertion for which there is so much evidence, it would be perverse to deny it. It has attained fact-hood. There are multiple lines of evidence to support it, and NO evidence to refute it. You are either perverse, or you are a moron, or you do not understand the nature of evidence, or you are so blinded by your religion, that you reject all evidence."

"Just a theory" betrays a lack of knowledge of how science works, and what evidence and theories are.

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08-10-2012, 08:22 AM
RE: Debunking "Souls"
(08-10-2012 07:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-10-2012 06:09 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  But these is like the Evolution, its just a theory.

No. There are "theories", and there are "theories".
"Just a theory" is the typical pejorative way Evolution deniers refer to a scientific theory which has attained the status of "fact-hood".

As Dr. Jerry Coyne, of the University of Chicago says, (in reference to Evolution), : "It is a fact. That is, it is an assertion for which there is so much evidence, it would be perverse to deny it. It has attained fact-hood. There are multiple lines of evidence to support it, and NO evidence to refute it. You are either perverse, or you are a moron, or you do not understand the nature of evidence, or you are so blinded by your religion, that you reject all evidence."

"Just a theory" betrays a lack of knowledge of how science works, and what evidence and theories are.

First of all, the sentence i wrote was false. It has to be like this: But this is like Evolution, its just a therorie!
Seconde, you dont get a joke, until he bit's you in the ass, right?
I am an atheist, i belief ( my finger dont want to typ in this word in the same sentence with the following words) in Evolution, may i should write i have knowledge about it, and it makes sence to me.
I think, it depence on the words and the meaning in our differend languages and cultures.
Belief is for me the same thing like not knowing.
So, belief in got is not knowing and not want to. Thats even worst.
I use to say, one belief's too much and knows too less.
Nearly every stadement from me beginns with the words " I think..." i would rather cut my hand off, befor i start with: " I belief...
If i know something, there is no need for belief.
The sentence, you are so angry about, was meant to be a laconic remark to my own theorie of the pendulum-model of human historie.
Maybe you should read the whole text, and if i wrote something, that is not understandable, because of the gramma or the vocabulary, then please be so kind and let me know it.
I try to communicate in a foreign language, try to walk i my boots.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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08-10-2012, 08:26 AM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
Not to derail, but I want to call Marco out on something. Your English is getting better, albeit slowly! Thumbsup
That is all.

Please enjoy your musings that escape me. Bowing

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"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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08-10-2012, 08:41 AM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
(08-10-2012 08:26 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Not to derail, but I want to call Marco out on something. Your English is getting better, albeit slowly! Thumbsup
That is all.

Please enjoy your musings that escape me. Bowing

You know, I'm like an old dog, not learning new tricks as fast as in the early days.

Is it really that bad?
Maybe i should keep the sentence shorter.
Or my mouth shut...sometimes...

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08-10-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
It's not bad, it is improving steadily, over a metaphoric small incline. Physics, you know, shorter the route, the more effort must be expended to move a thing to a higher plain (at least that's how it was explained to me a few years back).

Take it slow, you're getting there, my friend.

I have derailed this thread enough now...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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08-10-2012, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 09:11 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
(08-10-2012 12:46 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Science has caught up with meditation, mainly because Buddhist monks are so willing to help out scientists by donating their brains. There are atheists (and scientists) that push meditation, such as Sam Harris. However, the scientific consensus agrees that there is nothing supernatural behind the act, but that the feelings it causes spring from a literal re-wiring of the brain through practice.
I don't meditate for any emotions. The meditation I perform is not a classical meditation. It's a kind of Laya yoga, the yoga of energies. I meditate, but only to make possible the actual work, which is receiving, processing and channeling the subtle ( "supernatural" ) "energy".
I must mention, I never made any effort to imagine or feel these things, that would kind of defeat the whole point. It's not a thrill-seeking attraction, it's a practice where we're supposed to sit and concentrate at one spot, with minimum thoughts or sensoric-deprivated visions and no emotions. It would be rather boring, except boredom is an emotion and has no place in meditation. If there is any soul somewhere, it would be best observed in such a meditation of void. We better not invoke any feelings and see if the soul or something causes them by itself.

(08-10-2012 12:46 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  The supernatural aspect of the soul is what's being debated here. If you redefine the soul (such as making it synonymous with feelings of transcendentalism) then I may agree that it exists, but I don't see the usefulness of belief in such a "soul" for the purposes of proving God, heaven, or eternal life.
Usefulness of the soul, whether transcendent and/or immanent, is in the ability to unlock a personal potential. It is a very profound influence that may help to conquer personal vices, develop personal virtues and talents, steer the personality towards altruism, exert a greater influence on one's surroundings and generally become a more awesome dude. I don't say this is easy (no discipline is), more likely it's a lifetime effort, but if you do it right, most of the lifetime will be spent in effort to improve the surroundings, not just yourself. The soul influence typically impels the person towards some kind of service or contribution to the society, which is a positive thing, though far from foolproof.

As for the separate existence of the soul, I am interested in a material dualism. The physical matter itself occurs in two basic varieties, dense (matter as we know it) and subtle (weakly interacting, massive, low density). I'd say we'll find much more about the supernatural, soul or consciousness after we understand the latter cathegory of matter and the part it plays within us. Until then such dualistic discussions aren't even well-defined, there is so little to discuss. You might see that in the nice new video by QualiaSoup on the topic.


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08-10-2012, 11:48 AM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
This is a complex concept, not easily described in a simple forum post. In other words, this is gonna be long.

What is a soul supposed to do while we are living here on earth? Does it communicate with us, think for us, handle our emotions, memories, conscience, consciousness? Does it do anything at all?

Theoretically a soul can do everything our living physical mind and body can do. When we die, our flesh stays here to rot but our soul goes on to some transcendent afterlife where it can speak to other souls, think, recognize things, have feelings and experiences, know joy, suffer torture, etc. - basically it can do whatever our living bodies can do (and maybe more), it just does it in some afterlife.

As has been mentioned here and in many other sources, there is no evidence that the soul does anything at all right now, for our living body, and lots of evidence that it does nothing.

A perfectly normal person (who presumably has a soul) suffers head trauma and consequent brain damage (temporary or permanent). Because of this damage, he loses some brain functions, like memory or speech or recognizing his friends and family. Now, this brain-damaged person also has a soul that is independently capable of thinking, speaking, reasoning - after all, if a soul can do this stuff in the afterlife it's a reasonable assumption that it should be able to do it now, during the current life.

But time and time again, we see that when a person's flesh-and-blood brain is damaged, he or she loses mental capacity. There has never been a documented case (to my knowledge) of any person suffering physical brain damage who should have become impaired by this damage but didn't become impaired because his soul "took over" those brain functions and allowed him to continue functioning at his normal capacity despite the brain damage.

Which means that our soul is, so far, doing nothing for us during our life.

What about our conscience? Is that our soul? Does it help us decide moral issues, right from wrong? Maybe. Some people argue that this is the soul's function during life. But, we know that Christianity, at least, believes that Salvation comes not from a person's good works but rather from his belief/acceptance of Jesus as his savior. Bad people who don't listen very well to their soul/conscience can still get a free pass to heaven by believing, and good people who don't believe in Jesus but who always behave morally correctly, who listen to their soul/conscience in all things, will still burn in hell.

Consider a good, decent Buddhist man. He loves his family, takes care of his loved ones, works hard and honestly, is loyal and honest and moral in everything he does. We might say this man "has a good soul". But he'll still burn in hell for not accepting Jesus as his savior. His soul, or conscience, led him to live an amazingly good life, but it does him no good in the afterlife - that good soul is still going to burn for eternity.

So even if our soul is our conscience, that alone won't get us into heaven.

Can our soul lead us to Christianity?

Obviously not. Mine hasn't. That Buddhist's soul didn't lead him to Christianity. We already know that your religion is almost certainly just a matter of where you were born and how you were raised, with a much smaller number coming as adult conversions, and I think if you subtract adult de-conversions the remainder would be fairly close to zero. Virtually no "net" adult conversions.

So if a soul could lead an adult to choose Christianity, why are there so few adult conversions? Why are there any adult de-conversions? Are the rest of us just not listening to our souls?

Maybe we don't listen. That's a valid question. But consider that the soul knows it will burn in hell forever. It should be shouting at the top of it's metaphysical lungs, every second of every day, shouting, screaming, begging, pleading, cajoling us to find Jesus and accept him as our savior. Our soul is the part of us destined for hell if we fail to find Jesus. It should be doing everything in its immortal power to avoid that awful fate.

If the soul really has the power to influence our belief system, then it absolutely would do that. Every time. Every person. There is ZERO chance that a soul would be sitting in my flesh right now saying "Well, I guess I'm gonna burn in hell fore eternity. That's not so bad. Let's just sit back and let this guy be an atheist." Not a chance. It would be using its power to guide me toward the salvation it needs to escape an eternity in hell.

But so few adult conversions. So many adult de-conversions. Obviously our soul cannot force us to salvation. If it can't force it, or even strenuously suggest it, then it has no power to control our salvation.

Which leads me back to the fact that the soul is just along for the ride with no way to influence any human to find Christian salvation.

Here's the crux:

At some point, presumably around the time we are conceived (though different sects argue this point), God sticks a soul into our fetal self. He basically staples this soul onto our flesh. It cannot communicate with us, guide us, lead us, or do anything in any way to influence our actions during our entire mortal life, except maybe to help us with moral decisions that ultimately mean nothing to our salvation or our eventual afterlife. For all intents and purposes, the soul is just along for the ride.

Maybe a soul gets lucky and is stapled to a fetus that will be born to Christian parents and then raised as Christian child, grows to a Christian adult, accepts Jesus, and eventually goes to heaven when that mortal flesh dies. Or maybe a soul gets unlucky and is stapled to someone who doesn't live that life so this unlucky soul will eventually burn in hell for eternity.

Most people on Earth are not Christians. Most people on Earth have souls stapled to them that will eventually burn in hell when those people die. 7 billion people on this planet, only 2 billion Christians (and they don't even all agree that all 2 billion of them are properly "Saved"). So, less than 2 people out of every 7 will go to heaven.

That leaves at least 5 out of every 7 people running around with souls that are doomed to an eternity in hell.

Those souls cannot do anything to change that fact. They're just stapled to the wrong flesh.

Bad luck, soul - you got a crappy mortal so you must burn in hell forever. Too bad. Better luck next time - Oh, wait, there won't be a next time because Hell is forever.

But, the really funny part is that God knew this before he stuck that soul into that flesh. He's presumably Omniscient. He knows whether this fetus will grow up and live a good Christian life or not. God sticks the soul into the flesh already fully knowing whether this soul will burn in hell or not.

And for most of them. 5 out of 7, it's burn in hell with nothing, nothing at all, that the soul can do to avoid this hellish future. The soul didn't screw up - the mortal did. But, the soul can't influence that mortal so it just has to sit there and watch the mortal screw up, then later it just has to sit there and burn forever.

Luck of the draw.

God knew this before he said "Let there be light.". He knew he was creating heaven and hell, creating a system where most souls would burn in hell for eternity through no fault of their own.

This is the best that God could come up with? The majority of all souls in the universe will be randomly burned and tortured, forever, for all eternity, even though He knows that those souls did absolutely nothing to deserve this horrible fate?

That's God's grand plan?

It makes no sense. None at all.

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08-10-2012, 12:36 PM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
(08-10-2012 08:41 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(08-10-2012 08:26 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Not to derail, but I want to call Marco out on something. Your English is getting better, albeit slowly! Thumbsup
That is all.

Please enjoy your musings that escape me. Bowing

You know, I'm like an old dog, not learning new tricks as fast as in the early days.

Is it really that bad?
Maybe i should keep the sentence shorter.
Or my mouth shut...sometimes...

No need to keep the mouth closed, Marco. Thumbsup

As has been mentioned, atheists have been quiet for too long.

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08-10-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
(08-10-2012 08:53 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(08-10-2012 12:46 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Science has caught up with meditation, mainly because Buddhist monks are so willing to help out scientists by donating their brains. There are atheists (and scientists) that push meditation, such as Sam Harris. However, the scientific consensus agrees that there is nothing supernatural behind the act, but that the feelings it causes spring from a literal re-wiring of the brain through practice.
I don't meditate for any emotions. The meditation I perform is not a classical meditation. It's a kind of Laya yoga, the yoga of energies. I meditate, but only to make possible the actual work, which is receiving, processing and channeling the subtle ( "supernatural" ) "energy".
I must mention, I never made any effort to imagine or feel these things, that would kind of defeat the whole point. It's not a thrill-seeking attraction, it's a practice where we're supposed to sit and concentrate at one spot, with minimum thoughts or sensoric-deprivated visions and no emotions. It would be rather boring, except boredom is an emotion and has no place in meditation. If there is any soul somewhere, it would be best observed in such a meditation of void. We better not invoke any feelings and see if the soul or something causes them by itself.

(08-10-2012 12:46 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  The supernatural aspect of the soul is what's being debated here. If you redefine the soul (such as making it synonymous with feelings of transcendentalism) then I may agree that it exists, but I don't see the usefulness of belief in such a "soul" for the purposes of proving God, heaven, or eternal life.
Usefulness of the soul, whether transcendent and/or immanent, is in the ability to unlock a personal potential. It is a very profound influence that may help to conquer personal vices, develop personal virtues and talents, steer the personality towards altruism, exert a greater influence on one's surroundings and generally become a more awesome dude. I don't say this is easy (no discipline is), more likely it's a lifetime effort, but if you do it right, most of the lifetime will be spent in effort to improve the surroundings, not just yourself. The soul influence typically impels the person towards some kind of service or contribution to the society, which is a positive thing, though far from foolproof.

As for the separate existence of the soul, I am interested in a material dualism. The physical matter itself occurs in two basic varieties, dense (matter as we know it) and subtle (weakly interacting, massive, low density). I'd say we'll find much more about the supernatural, soul or consciousness after we understand the latter cathegory of matter and the part it plays within us. Until then such dualistic discussions aren't even well-defined, there is so little to discuss. You might see that in the nice new video by QualiaSoup on the topic.



I've seen QualiaSoup's video... I'm subscribed. His videos are some of the most rational found on the internet, and this is no exception. I don't think I've ever disagreed with him on a single point, and he expresses his views much better than I ever could.

I think the point of what I'm saying is, "great citation".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-10-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: Immortal Souls / Immortality Debunked
(08-10-2012 12:36 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  No need to keep the mouth closed, Marco. Thumbsup

As has been mentioned, atheists have been quiet for too long.

You're probably right, but what the use of an open mouth, if nobody understands whats comes out of it.
I am afraid, thats happend to me, from time to time, if i try to speak/write in english language.
The reaction to some of my post's are not quite what i expected.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes i read what i wrote, and i laugh at myself

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