Impossibility and Necessity
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08-03-2015, 02:52 AM
Impossibility and Necessity
I believe all possible events will necessarily exist unless their occurrence is prevented by the free choice of an external agent.That is, things are either necessary or impossible. I seriously doubt there are any agents with free will.
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08-03-2015, 03:35 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
Was that a question?

Wink

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08-03-2015, 05:57 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 02:52 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  I believe all possible events will necessarily exist unless their occurrence is prevented by the free choice of an external agent.That is, things are either necessary or impossible. I seriously doubt there are any agents with free will.

Prove it.Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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08-03-2015, 06:02 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 02:52 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  I believe all possible events will necessarily exist unless their occurrence is prevented by the free choice of an external agent.That is, things are either necessary or impossible. I seriously doubt there are any agents with free will.

That could only possibly be true in an infinite universe. The universe does not appear to be infinite.

Why do you believe that?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-03-2015, 06:32 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
So how do you explain the uncertainties inherent in quantum mechanics? Is the outcome that arose during a "wave function collapse" necessary, as in predetermined? Bell's inequality would seem to disprove that notion. Do you think that each such "collapse" creates an alternate universe and that therefore all events that exist are necessary - just in different universes?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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08-03-2015, 07:03 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 02:52 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  I believe all possible events will necessarily exist unless their occurrence is prevented by the free choice of an external agent.That is, things are either necessary or impossible. I seriously doubt there are any agents with free will.

I never really understood that argument; even in an infinity all things don't have to exist. If you calculate 123/999 you have an infinite series that will never contain a 4. If you enumerate the even integers you get an infinite set that will never contain 3.

It seems to me that even in an infinite universe of infinite duration something like the Cantor diagonal argument would apply and show that not all possible events necessarily occur.

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08-03-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 06:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 02:52 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  I believe all possible events will necessarily exist unless their occurrence is prevented by the free choice of an external agent.That is, things are either necessary or impossible. I seriously doubt there are any agents with free will.

That could only possibly be true in an infinite universe. The universe does not appear to be infinite.

Why do you believe that?
I think (without evidence) that our universe is part of an infinite multiverse. I find it hard to believe an available infinity is only partially filled with a limited number of universes. Who or what sets the limit and why?
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08-03-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 06:32 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So how do you explain the uncertainties inherent in quantum mechanics? Is the outcome that arose during a "wave function collapse" necessary, as in predetermined? Bell's inequality would seem to disprove that notion. Do you think that each such "collapse" creates an alternate universe and that therefore all events that exist are necessary - just in different universes?
I don't believe any deus ex machina collapses the wave function.
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08-03-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 11:26 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 06:32 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So how do you explain the uncertainties inherent in quantum mechanics? Is the outcome that arose during a "wave function collapse" necessary, as in predetermined? Bell's inequality would seem to disprove that notion. Do you think that each such "collapse" creates an alternate universe and that therefore all events that exist are necessary - just in different universes?
I don't believe any deus ex machina collapses the wave function.

There is nothing to collapse; there is no thing. A wave function is an expression of probability - the probability of an event or particle at a location.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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09-03-2015, 05:20 AM
RE: Impossibility and Necessity
(08-03-2015 08:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 11:26 AM)Transfinite Wrote:  I don't believe any deus ex machina collapses the wave function.

There is nothing to collapse; there is no thing. A wave function is an expression of probability - the probability of an event or particle at a location.

... that is capable of instantaneously determining another event or particle at distant location Wink

So Transfinite, I think I may be understanding something different to you when you say "necessary" then. I was taking it to more or less mean predetermined from the beginning of time... but that hardly seems proven at this point. Nevertheless I'm with you on eschewing the notion of a god in the machine deciding it all.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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