In Abraham's Shoes
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12-11-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 03:44 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 03:41 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I've been told that god knew that Abraham would pass but the point was to demonstrate to Abraham that his faith was that deep. The problem is that I don't see any reason why that needed to be demonstrated.
Wouldn't an omnipotent being already know the outcome so test of any kind are unnecessary?

Yes, god knew the outcome but Abraham didn't. Abraham loved god and was obedient but hadn't had his faith tested to that degree. Putting Abraham to such a drastic test allowed Abraham to understand that he truly loved god more than he loved anything else. God already knew that and was just helping Abraham understand himself.

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12-11-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 03:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Yes, god knew the outcome but Abraham didn't. Abraham loved god and was obedient but hadn't had his faith tested to that degree. Putting Abraham to such a drastic test allowed Abraham to understand that he truly loved god more than he loved anything else. God already knew that and was just helping Abraham understand himself.

One problem I have with this is faith isn't a factor. God was talking to Abraham. No faith needed. Abraham would have known God exists. So one could say it's the extent of his obedience to God and his love for God (which you also mentioned) that were really being tested. And this is how I have always understood it.

However, as I put myself in Abraham's shoes, I realized that love for God has nothing to do with it. I love my wife, but if she asked me to kill even a complete stranger, it would just be wrong and I wouldn't do it. It would not prove my love if I killed the stranger nor would it undermine my love to tell her "no way!" If I were to kill my child because God said to do so, it would only be obedience and it would be due to fear, not love. But my love for my child would override that fear and I couldn't obey God. That's why I now see this as it being more of a test of the love for the child than anything else. Abraham apparently didn't love Isaac enough to overcome his fear.

Of course, none of this is really true, but had it been true, God would have known that he was not testing faith or love of himself. Only obedience, fear, and love of Isaac. So, while I'm sure you are right that the story holds that God was trying to show Abraham how much he loved God, it really doesn't logically fit. In actuality, he was showing Abraham that he didn't have enough love for Isaac to refuse to kill him and that his fear of God was stronger.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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12-11-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 05:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  So, while I'm sure you are right that the story holds that God was trying to show Abraham how much he loved God, it really doesn't logically fit.

No, it doesn't really make sense, but the idea that god wanted Abraham to understand how much he loved (or feared since Christians seem to conflate the two) does make at least a little bit more sense to me than any test where god needed to find out the answer.

My issue with the claim is that it is pointless. If god already knew that Abraham would obey no matter what then what difference does it make if Abraham fully understands the extent of that? He's already obedient and knows that he loves/fears his god. The only reason for god to do that is to rub it in his face. It is like the Job story where god gets off on how much Job worships him.

Matt Dillahunty often uses the mafia boss comparison and I think it fits both cases. God is simply getting off making people tell him how much they love him. It makes sense that people in a society ruled by petty, vindictive warlords would envision that sort of god.

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12-11-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_QPjefut4

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12-11-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
It wasn't such a big test in the end, now was it?
In Bible-logic children are undifferentiated tradeable commodities. If god takes one away by commanding you to murder them, he'll probably give you another one in exchange. Maybe two!
Job 42 NIV Wrote:10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-11-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
I thought it was never made abundantly clear how God was talking to Abraham, and in what way did Abraham have to know what God was?

I would first still have to question this supposed God to have him demonstrate if he was omni-something or the sole God of existence/the good one. So without actual reasons to trust God, which the bible gives none to the legend of Abraham(other than supposedly God telling him, bang that woman instead of your wife to have a kid; then i'll get your wife pregnant) I wouldn't act upon it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-11-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
The answer, at least defined by today's Christians, is placing God's will over all else, family included.

Anybody that's familiar with Americanized Christianity know they preach about putting God before any and everything in your life.
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12-11-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 03:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 03:44 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Wouldn't an omnipotent being already know the outcome so test of any kind are unnecessary?

Yes, god knew the outcome but Abraham didn't. Abraham loved god and was obedient but hadn't had his faith tested to that degree. Putting Abraham to such a drastic test allowed Abraham to understand that he truly loved god more than he loved anything else. God already knew that and was just helping Abraham understand himself.
Would be better if we had a sarcasm font. Being an ex-thiest I get all that. Logically it is mind warping.
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12-11-2014, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2014 08:21 PM by Can_of_Beans.)
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 02:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
Quote:5) If God commanded you, as he did to Abraham in Genesis 22, to take one of your children and kill him/her upon an altar as a demonstration of your faith and obedience, would you do it? Can you explain what you might do in that situation?

I asked someone that question once.

They said "he wouldn't ask."
I said, "ok but suppose he did?"
They said "I don't think he would ask me that."
I said "God asked Abraham. Just suppose he asks you to do it. Would you?"
They said "My god would never ask me to do such a thing."
I said "but he does in the Bible!"
They said "That's in the Bible. MY god would never ask me to do anything like that."

Maybe I shouldn't have been badgering a Hindu.

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12-11-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
Abraham is as phony as the rest of that shit.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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