In Abraham's Shoes
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12-11-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
Deleted, didn't see that unfogged beat me to the point I was making Big Grin

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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13-11-2014, 12:28 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
Parable of the Old Man and the Young - Wilfred Owen

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-11-2014, 08:16 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 03:09 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Considering God'd pride at killing Jesus, and tendency to create things that wipe out his children by the thousands, I'm thinking God just has a really shitty idea of loving your child.

It's called omnibenevolence. You wouldn't understand. None of us do. Not even the apologists.
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13-11-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 05:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, it doesn't really make sense, but the idea that god wanted Abraham to understand how much he loved (or feared since Christians seem to conflate the two) does make at least a little bit more sense to me than any test where god needed to find out the answer.

I agree that it makes more sense that way because, as you said, God wouldn't need to test anything since he is supposed to know everything already. However, I would argue that this interpretation is also apologetics. Genesis 22 says that God tested Abraham (or tempted Abraham in some versions). It does not say God wanted to teach Abraham or help Abraham understand himself. I think the author's intention was to say that God tested Abraham and it simply doesn't make sense because it's fiction. Apologetics tries to make it fit reality or logic better.

(12-11-2014 05:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  My issue with the claim is that it is pointless. If god already knew that Abraham would obey no matter what then what difference does it make if Abraham fully understands the extent of that? He's already obedient and knows that he loves/fears his god. The only reason for god to do that is to rub it in his face. It is like the Job story where god gets off on how much Job worships him.

Matt Dillahunty often uses the mafia boss comparison and I think it fits both cases. God is simply getting off making people tell him how much they love him. It makes sense that people in a society ruled by petty, vindictive warlords would envision that sort of god.

All of this still applies even if God really was testing Abraham. God apparently needs to keep hearing how great he is. Dodgy

Side note:
I just reread Genesis 22 and noticed that it reads strangely. Verse 12 has an angel of the lord saying:
Quote:"Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

This sounds like God's words, but it is the angel who is speaking. "withheld from me"... Nowhere in the story does it say the angel was even involved before this point. How could Abraham have been withholding the sacrifice from the angel?

And here again in verses 15-18 the angel speaks, but it sounds like God's words ("I will surely bless you..." and "...because you have obeyed me)":
Quote:The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “15 I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

The phrase "declares the Lord" might be intended to say that these are the words as spoken by God, but it's awkwardly written at best.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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13-11-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(12-11-2014 07:38 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 02:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  

I asked someone that question once.

They said "he wouldn't ask."
I said, "ok but suppose he did?"
They said "I don't think he would ask me that."
I said "God asked Abraham. Just suppose he asks you to do it. Would you?"
They said "My god would never ask me to do such a thing."
I said "but he does in the Bible!"
They said "That's in the Bible. MY god would never ask me to do anything like that."

Maybe I shouldn't have been badgering a Hindu.

Very little is more irritating to me than a theist who refuses to consider a hypothetical situation for the sake of discussion. And you just gotta love that "MY god" stuff too - i.e. "I'll dismiss anything that's inconvenient". Dodgy

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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13-11-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(13-11-2014 09:45 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, I would argue that this interpretation is also apologetics.

Absolutely. Sorry if I didn't make it clear; that is my view as well. I was just explaining the "best" apologetic I've heard for this. It's still twisting the story to try to salvage something from it.

Quote:Side note:
I just reread Genesis 22 and noticed that it reads strangely. Verse 12 has an angel of the lord saying:
Quote:"Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

This sounds like God's words, but it is the angel who is speaking.


True, although I usually let that slide as the angel just being a mouthpiece for god. Of course, no matter how you take that quote it makes it hard to defend this version of the apologetic. If god says "now I know" it certainly implies that he didn't know before.

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13-11-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(13-11-2014 10:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 09:45 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, I would argue that this interpretation is also apologetics.

Absolutely. Sorry if I didn't make it clear; that is my view as well. I was just explaining the "best" apologetic I've heard for this. It's still twisting the story to try to salvage something from it.

Quote:Side note:
I just reread Genesis 22 and noticed that it reads strangely. Verse 12 has an angel of the lord saying:

This sounds like God's words, but it is the angel who is speaking.


True, although I usually let that slide as the angel just being a mouthpiece for god. Of course, no matter how you take that quote it makes it hard to defend this version of the apologetic. If god says "now I know" it certainly implies that he didn't know before.

I think someone else already mentioned this, but the God of the old testament wasn't necessarily the "all-powerful" God of modern Christianity. He "repented" of his creation and decided to destroy it (with the flood), then had to remind himself not to do this again by putting a rainbow in the sky. Then he had to come down to earth to see what was going on at the Tower of Babel. Later, he was unable to help the Israelites defeat some other tribe, because they had iron chariots. Not to mention needing 6 whole days to create everything, and then needing to rest. This, like the Greek gods, is more like a very powerful human than the sort of God Christians profess to believe in today. God has evolved over time just like other human ideas.
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13-11-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(13-11-2014 08:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 03:09 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Considering God'd pride at killing Jesus, and tendency to create things that wipe out his children by the thousands, I'm thinking God just has a really shitty idea of loving your child.

It's called omnibenevolence. You wouldn't understand. None of us do. Not even the apologists.

These types of stories are what makes you really scratch your head about Christianity. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent and showed to Abraham that he was the one and only true God out there, then it would be a no brainer to do exactly like he says. Where is the faith needed for that? If you are facing an impossibly power who not only has the ability to end your life, but torture you forever after death, then you would automatically become the biggest "yes man" in the world. This doesn't make sense to me. However, if at the time it was assumed that God was one of a number of other Gods and he was a God to only the people of Abraham, then I understand the story much more clearly because in Abraham's mind Yaweh is HIS God and to switch sides and worship Baal would anger Yaweh. Then the faith would be...is Yaweh a stronger god than Baal, for example.

The concept of ignoring an order for the greater good - what everyone in Nuremberg said the Germans should have done instead of gassing millions of Jews when these people were on trial - was never developed until after Christianity developed for a period of time. IMHO, I don't think that concept ever developed until the Enlightenment or maybe a hundred years before. The idea of blindly serving a master and a king especially was a common belief and cultural practice back then. The belief being that the king/ruling party was put there thru the grace of God. Therefore, it's hard to interpret these various parts of scripture for us because we know the final product - Christianity in it's most current form.

The more you understand the bible, the more disjointed it looks when you look at it objectively. I no longer can see how the "New testament is hidden in the old and the old testament is revealed in the new". Considering how late these books in the NT were written after Christ and most of the apostles died, it makes more sense to me that the NT books were written in a purely post hoc fashion taking the OT into account.
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14-11-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
This thread reminds me of a joke from when I was in the Army.

A high ranking and well paid job in the CIA opens up, but only former veterans may apply. An army ranger, navy seal, and Delta Force soldier apply for the job.

A CIA agent schedules final interviews with each of the applicants. He tells them that they are all very qualified, and thanked them for their service, but since there was only one slot, they would have to pass this final test. "Behind the closed door to each of those rooms are your wives. Since this is a very sensitive job, we must test your allegiance to your country."

He hands the gun to the Ranger and tells him to go into the room and kill his wife. "Screw this, I'm not killing my wife to get this job" the Ranger said as he stormed out with his wife.

The CIA agent handed the SEAL the gun. The SEAL went into the room and you could hear his wife screaming and crying, a few minutes later they both walked out. "I love my family too much to kill them" the SEAL said.

The agent turned to the gun over to the DELTA Force soldier. He took the gun into the room, you hear 12 loud gunshots followed by a brief pause, and then screaming, glass breaking and stuff smashing against the walls. After 5 minutes, the DELTA force soldier came out with blood all over him and he was exhausted.

"What happened in there?" asked the CIA agent.

To which the DELTA force soldier replied "Some a$$hole put blanks in the gun, so I had to beat the b**ch to death with the chair."

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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14-11-2014, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 10:47 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: In Abraham's Shoes
(13-11-2014 12:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  Parable of the Old Man and the Young - Wilfred Owen

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

That shocking poem is interlaced with the Roman Requiem (Latin Gregorian) liturgy in Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem".
https://www.its.caltech.edu/~tan/Britten/reqtext.html
I remember as a kid the first time I went to it, (totally oblivious to what was going to happen), and the hair stood up on the back of my neck, and my ears started ringing, and I got the chills when he does just go ahead and kills Isaac. WTAF !!!!

I'm not so sure why that myth is there. It may be a repudiation of child sacrifice, (which they were known to have practiced for a while --- proven by archaeology --- outside Jerusalem in the Valley Of Gehinon among other places ---
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromot...nt-israel/
but the "ram in a thicket" (the *goat* caught in the bush) which Abraham spotted, and was supposed to have sacrificed instead, was a common fertility theme at that time : http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/hig...icket.aspx
So maybe it's more of a "promise of fertility for the nation" thing, if they do what they're told.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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