In God's Image
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29-03-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: In God's Image
(29-03-2016 01:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Then perhaps you haven't spent enough time with goat herders.

And judging by your comments here, I'm guessing that you've spent too much time with them. Big Grin

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-03-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: In God's Image
(29-03-2016 12:48 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Surely god created us in his image. All our violence, discrimination and sexism is pretty good evidence for it.

You make an argument of Biblical proportions. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-03-2016, 07:12 PM
RE: In God's Image
(29-03-2016 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don’t believe in irreducible complexity when it comes to evolution, and in fact said almost nothing at all about evolution per se.

Good. All of the examples of irreducible complexity were debunked in the kitzmiller v. dover case. wiki link

(29-03-2016 02:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  We don’t even have to have an answer why our DNA is so complex and special, we can just acknowledge it is complex and special.

We can take our understanding of our origins back to the pre-organic chemicals that became RNA then DNA. Our understanding is not perfect but it is improving.

There is no evidence of, nor need of, a god or creative entity.

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29-03-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: In God's Image
(29-03-2016 08:53 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  When it doubt there's always Wikipedia:

[Image: e5794c995122bac94eeacaa112be0213c3296886...842fbf.jpg]

This is my opinion only, FWIW:

Wikipedia is fine, as long as you understand it's issues. Reputable articles have sources and links, verifications and citations. It's a good starting point for research.

It teaches us to do research for ourselves and not to take any source as completely trustworthy.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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30-03-2016, 07:09 AM
RE: In God's Image
(29-03-2016 03:24 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not sure I would say that our existence is "astonishing" but it is wondrous. I will agree we don't need to understand it to know it's "special" but you said we could call it "cosmic luck" which isn't correct and you implied if we turned back time and tried it again we may have a different result but there's no reason to believe that to be true as long as nothing else changes we will always be the end result. Even though we humans are great in many ways our behaviors are very much that of a virus, we are currently destroying our planet and will continue do so as we progress and our population grows, why would God create an intelligent species capable of so much destruction? To the point where we may not even be able to survive much longer on the one planet he made for us? Being all knowing that wasn't a very smart move.

A creature like ourself, has only appeared once, in the evolutionary timeline, while features like eyes have independently arose several dozen times. No one particularly imagines that given enough time another species of a separate lineage will result in creatures like ourselves. What sort of ecological niches, and pressures that led to our arrival are entirely unknown, and so rare that they only occurred one time. As suggested by others like Sean Carroll, the raw materials for evolution, like mutation, “is likely to be a quantum phenomenon, both in nature of replications errors in DNA and in the cosmic rays that can also cause mutations. Which makes the unpredictable in principle.” “That means that if we reran the tape of life, one couldn’t say with any certainty that humanlike creatures would appear.”

So is an astonishing that that creatures like ourself exist, even more so when we draw it back a bit further.

[quote]Our DNA may be complex but it's not perfect and it doesn't look to be intelligently designed, why are there so many diseases and disorders that are literally encoded into our cells?

I’m not even speaking it terms of complexity or perfection, just in terms of capacity. Further more in the capacity of matter to organize itself in certain way and produce conscious, self-aware creatures like ourself. That’s not just wondrous, that’s astonishing. To scale it smaller, even to produce DNA, that that has capacities when organized in certain way to produce us, rather than a type that no matter what combination only produced a variety of different forms of bacteria.

These capacities are not merely a wondrous thing, they’re a profoundly astonishing thing.

Quote:]I'm not sure I would say that our existence is "astonishing" but it is wondrous. I will agree we don't need to understand it to know it's "special" but you said we could call it "cosmic luck"

When atheists such as yourself, have trouble believing we’re a matter of cosmic luck, all it tends to do is coddle my view that the alternative to my beliefs are not all that believable, even to parties that should be the most receptive to it. I think it’s absurd to believe we’re product of cosmic luck, perhaps you even agree with that?

So what’s the alternative to cosmic luck here, if we’re ruling out cosmic intent, purpose, plan, etc…? As well as ruling out lack of belief as an alternative.

(I know you might be more comfortable appealing to science here, but this isn’t a science question, and doesn’t really involve any questioning of established science here, it’s an ontological question, which science doesn’t do. )

Quote:Yes we can write poetry and seek truth but we just as often war with each other and develop bigger, better weapons. It's all very convenient to focus on the nice stuff God may have given us if creationism is real but he also made us angry, petty and violent. Was that part of his "image" as well? I guess so, according to the Bible God has a very bad case of jealousy, wrath and blood lust.

Whatever our world is, it isn’t a nice thing analogous to a vacation in the Hamptons, but a monstrous and beautiful thing, full of pain and beauty, and joy, tragedy and hope, death and life. Whatever creator we might imagine behind it, is likely not be of the sort of character we might associate with Santa Claus, and on some perches look like a contemous and malevolent being, sort of like is said of the God of the OT.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 07:29 AM
RE: In God's Image
(30-03-2016 07:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 03:24 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not sure I would say that our existence is "astonishing" but it is wondrous. I will agree we don't need to understand it to know it's "special" but you said we could call it "cosmic luck" which isn't correct and you implied if we turned back time and tried it again we may have a different result but there's no reason to believe that to be true as long as nothing else changes we will always be the end result. Even though we humans are great in many ways our behaviors are very much that of a virus, we are currently destroying our planet and will continue do so as we progress and our population grows, why would God create an intelligent species capable of so much destruction? To the point where we may not even be able to survive much longer on the one planet he made for us? Being all knowing that wasn't a very smart move.

A creature like ourself, has only appeared once, in the evolutionary timeline, while features like eyes have independently arose several dozen times. No one particularly imagines that given enough time another species of a separate lineage will result in creatures like ourselves. What sort of ecological niches, and pressures that led to our arrival are entirely unknown, and so rare that they only occurred one time. As suggested by others like Sean Carroll, the raw materials for evolution, like mutation, “is likely to be a quantum phenomenon, both in nature of replications errors in DNA and in the cosmic rays that can also cause mutations. Which makes the unpredictable in principle.” “That means that if we reran the tape of life, one couldn’t say with any certainty that humanlike creatures would appear.”

So is an astonishing that that creatures like ourself exist, even more so when we draw it back a bit further.

[quote]Our DNA may be complex but it's not perfect and it doesn't look to be intelligently designed, why are there so many diseases and disorders that are literally encoded into our cells?

I’m not even speaking it terms of complexity or perfection, just in terms of capacity. Further more in the capacity of matter to organize itself in certain way and produce conscious, self-aware creatures like ourself. That’s not just wondrous, that’s astonishing. To scale it smaller, even to produce DNA, that that has capacities when organized in certain way to produce us, rather than a type that no matter what combination only produced a variety of different forms of bacteria.

These capacities are not merely a wondrous thing, they’re a profoundly astonishing thing.

Quote:]I'm not sure I would say that our existence is "astonishing" but it is wondrous. I will agree we don't need to understand it to know it's "special" but you said we could call it "cosmic luck"

When atheists such as yourself, have trouble believing we’re a matter of cosmic luck, all it tends to do is coddle my view that the alternative to my beliefs are not all that believable, even to parties that should be the most receptive to it. I think it’s absurd to believe we’re product of cosmic luck, perhaps you even agree with that?

So what’s the alternative to cosmic luck here, if we’re ruling out cosmic intent, purpose, plan, etc…? As well as ruling out lack of belief as an alternative.

(I know you might be more comfortable appealing to science here, but this isn’t a science question, and doesn’t really involve any questioning of established science here, it’s an ontological question, which science doesn’t do. )

Quote:Yes we can write poetry and seek truth but we just as often war with each other and develop bigger, better weapons. It's all very convenient to focus on the nice stuff God may have given us if creationism is real but he also made us angry, petty and violent. Was that part of his "image" as well? I guess so, according to the Bible God has a very bad case of jealousy, wrath and blood lust.

Whatever our world is, it isn’t a nice thing analogous to a vacation in the Hamptons, but a monstrous and beautiful thing, full of pain and beauty, and joy, tragedy and hope, death and life. Whatever creator we might imagine behind it, is likely not be of the sort of character we might associate with Santa Claus, and on some perches look like a contemous and malevolent being, sort of like is said of the God of the OT.

There's one thing I see on this forum from time to time that's so weird. People make arguments and act like something being "absurd" is the point that negates something. It doesn't end the ideas at all. We can embrace and accept it as absurd. This bothered me so much by Dilldo all the time when he was in his Sye-brain in a vat kick he would argue to a point saying well it's absurd to believe... okay so? Then he would ignore the thread and go away never stepping. It's like this fake barrier that doesn't exist is perceived by some people as if this point of something being incomprehensible or ununderstood totally invalidis the idea.

Yeah so it's absurd... why do you need an alternative?

Some argument or idea being absurd doesn't mean it's unsound or invalid.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-03-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: In God's Image
(30-03-2016 07:29 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yeah so it's absurd... why do you need an alternative?

Some argument or idea being absurd doesn't mean it's unsound or invalid.

I think you missed the point of the question, which about why she finds the idea of a cosmic accident to be a hard pill to swallow, as a seemingly unsound or invalid position.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: In God's Image
(30-03-2016 07:29 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  This bothered me so much by Dilldo all the time when he was in his Sye-brain in a vat kick he would argue to a point saying well it's absurd to believe... okay so?

Who?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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30-03-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: In God's Image
(30-03-2016 07:34 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 07:29 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  This bothered me so much by Dilldo all the time when he was in his Sye-brain in a vat kick he would argue to a point saying well it's absurd to believe... okay so?

Who?

ditto/dildo whatever his actual name was.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-03-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: In God's Image
(30-03-2016 07:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 07:34 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Who?

ditto/dildo whatever his actual name was.

Still no idea. Must be from before my time. Consider

Sorry to say that I am familiar with Sye and his pre-sup bullshit, though.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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