In Uncharted Lands with Alla
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21-12-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
epronovost Wrote:When a criminal is released from prison, we assume and tried to rehabilitate him so that he doesn't become a danger again to society. We also monitor him for a few years after his release (conditional liberation). If the criminal was especially dangerous, sometime, we never liberate him. This system sometime fails because we are human, we fail from time to time. Aren't your gods immortal being with ultimate wisdom? What did they do to rehabilitate the demons? Are the demons monitored? Why should I treat god less severely than humans especially that demons are by nature impossible to rehabilitate and made of pure hatred by your own very definition? A demon is even more evil than Hitler and Stalin, yet gods release them and send them in a world where their own children are vulnerable and this is somehow not going to have any effect on their moral agency and their capacity to explore the world and make their choices?

1) Lucifer/Demon/Satan and demons don't want to be rehabilitated. They chose not to be rehabilitated.
2) The only reason (as I already explained) why Gods let Satan and demons to be here /around us, is that we can exercise our moral agency. That is why when you say: "they are going to effect our moral agency" I say: "without them there is no moral agency but anything we do/choose is neutral - neither good nor evil.
Without them there is no evil. Then there is no moral agency - choice between good and evil.
They can not effect our moral agency till the moment we LET them to do so.
epronovost Wrote:On my question I indeed meant bias not basis. A basis is a norm/foundation. A bias, in that context, is something that throw our judgement off sometime without us noticing it.
Could you please explain to me in your own word what is a bias in the context of a moral decision making process?
My moral decision making process is based on God 's definition of morality.

epronovost Wrote:Could you please type on google false choice definition. I think it would help you to understand that concept, because I think your doctrine is imposing you one and would like to have your opinion on it
Could you explain to me in your own words the difference between a choice and a false choice?
I read it.
I don't believe in false choices. I believe in bad choices, good choices, better choices, the best choices, the worst choices.
epronovost Wrote:Since all your world and understanding steams from revelation from gods and spirits which might be false, which might be demons (even worse), why isn't trust the must important value in your system, well over hard work, charity and integrity? It's the very basis of your entire belief system and central in your interpretation of our common reality.
Yes, of course, faith in God or to trust God is very, very important.
LDS agree with Paul who said that there are many wonderful values but above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
Col 3:14
And LDS agree with these words of Paul: And now abideth FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY, these three: but the greatest of these is charity 1Cor 13:13
Why?
If in this life I have faith and hope but I have no charity I can not become perfect(like Gods). But if in this life I have no faith and no hope but I have charity I can become perfect(like Gods).
P.S. Oh, and it is not true that all my world and understanding steams from revelations from God. There are many other things from which my world and understanding steams.

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21-12-2015, 09:49 PM
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
I don't understand how the abscence of demon prevents us from making moral choice. Can't we make evil actions without the «help» of demons? Don't we know good from evil even in our mortal state? Wasn't it the point of all this in your belief system. We are here to test ourselves and see if deprived from powers we would make good choices?

How does you God define moral and why?

I like your answer to my question about trust, but if charity is most important because without it you can't become a God, isn't your charity vastly self serving? You are charitable to become the absolute immortal ruler of your own world. Its like me giving my money to people because its going to make me crapulously rich in a few years. Furthermore, you need to trust your «prophet» that you can become a god. After all, they might be lying to you for their own gain...

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22-12-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
epronovost Wrote:I don't understand how the abscence of demon prevents us from making moral choice. Can't we make evil actions without the «help» of demons? Don't we know good from evil even in our mortal state? Wasn't it the point of all this in your belief system. We are here to test ourselves and see if deprived from powers we would make good choices?
So, according to LDS doctrine we all lived with God(Father) before this earth was created. We call it "pre-mortal life". He told us that we can become like Him which means we can have eternal life/eternal progression/fullness of joy. And we had to choose it, we couldn't be forced to have eternal life. We had agency. But we couldn't choose eternal life with full understanding. We would never understand the value of eternal life if an opposite choice was never placed before us. We had to come here and experience good and evil. Only when the opposite options are placed before us we can make moral choices.
It is said in the Book of Mormon that "it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. if not, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither good nor bad. God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
When God told Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, He didn't take an opportunity from them to exercise their agency. If Eve partook of the fruit before Lucifer tempted her, it wouldn't be moral choice. Another option had to be placed before Eve in order to make her "moral choice". Eve had to think: "what do I want more? do I want to do what Father said and not to become like Father/Gods who know good and evil? or do I want to eat the fruit and become like Father/Gods?"
Eve made a good choice. She chose to become like Father/Gods. And this was the plan of God. This is why we come here - to face good and evil and to choose between those oppositions. We can choose eternal life here in this fallen world. We will understand the value of eternal life because we learn here what death is and what misery is.
Does Satan and demons have to tempt us all the time? Of course not. We come to the world where already there are plenty of people who can entice us in both (opposite) ways.
If I born in a society that does lots of evil and there is no good I can not have a chance to choose good or to make moral choice. I need someone who can show me another way. It has to be placed before me. Then I can make my moral choice.
If I live in a society where there is only good and there is no evil I can not have a chance to choose evil or to make moral choice. I need someone who can show me another way. It has to be placed before me.
If you are bad because you had some bad influences in your life Satan doesn't have "to take care of you". You already destroy yourself. But if you are good or you are trying to change your life for better then he will be around and he will try to tempt you to make bad choices that lead to self destruction.
epronovost Wrote:How does you God define moral and why?
as "good", as anything that leads towards eternal life or fullness of joy. Gods know eternal laws and They teach us. These laws lead towards eternal progression. Satan will oppose this laws. Then we may make our moral choices.
epronovost Wrote:I like your answer to my question about trust, but if charity is most important because without it you can't become a God, isn't your charity vastly self serving? You are charitable to become the absolute immortal ruler of your own world. Its like me giving my money to people because its going to make me crapulously rich in a few years.
This is really, really good point.
Why do I want to be God? Is this because I want to be immortal ruler of my own world? To tell you the truth I don't understand fully what it means to be a ruler of my own world. But I do know what "happiness" is. That is why I want to have fullness of joy. I want to be happy. And I know that when I love or serve others it makes me happy and it makes happy those whom I serve.
Only fool will not wish happiness to himself/herself.
When someone serves me/does good to me, it makes me very happy. Then I want to share this happiness with others - I serve others. Happiness is contagious. )I just made it up. But I believe it is true).
If I want to do charity because I want to have some kind of power or for any other reason than to be happy and then share this happiness with others, I do not do good. Jesus called people like this "hypocrites"
So, in order to share happiness with others I have to be happy first, I have to understand what it means.
This is the purpose why we are here. This is why Adam fell that men might be. And men are that they might have joy/happiness.
epronovost Wrote:Furthermore, you need to trust your «prophet» that you can become a god. After all, they might be lying to you for their own gain...
Another great point.
Do you remember I told you about this mysterious convincing power I call "the Holy Ghost"? It convinced me that LDS Doctrine is true. I also see fruits of my faith. They are so good that I have no reason to stop following teachings of the prophets.
We come to this earth to be tested. We can not be tested if we remember our pre-mortal life and if we have perfect knowledge of God. We have to make our moral choices by faith. When we know for sure that there is God, our choices will be influenced by this perfect knowledge. If we have perfect knowledge of God we also can not be forgiven for our mistakes because we will rebel against the truth knowingly. When we make mistakes and we don't have perfect knowledge of the truth we can be forgiven of our mistakes.
God will have mercy on all of us. His judgment will not only be fair but it will be also merciful. Because God is both: Justice and Mercy.

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23-12-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
You failed to explain to me why demons and devils are necessary. You have explained to me the necessity to have the potential for doing evil and good things so that we have a moral agency, but you failed to explain why, despite the fact that we have the potential for doing good and evil within us, God send demons and devils to tempt us in addition. That still looks like a breach of our moral agency. It pressure us to make decision that we might not have made on our own. According to your own words, human can do evil things on their own, why are demons here then? They seem pointless and dangerous for nothing.

If you don't know what it is to be a ruler, then you lack imagination my dear. Play a strategy game or give orders, dispense punishment and rewards. It's going to give you glimpse of what it is.

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23-12-2015, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 02:07 PM by Alla.)
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
epronovost Wrote:You failed to explain to me why demons and devils are necessary. You have explained to me the necessity to have the potential for doing evil and good things so that we have a moral agency, but you failed to explain why, despite the fact that we have the potential for doing good and evil within us, God send demons and devils to tempt us in addition.
That still looks like a breach of our moral agency. It pressure us to make decision that we might not have made on our own. According to your own words, human can do evil things on their own, why are demons here then? They seem pointless and dangerous for nothing.
Yes, I see that I failed. I am not all the time very good with explaining things.
After Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he became mortal man or man in fallen state. Man in fallen state( mortal man) can be both - spiritual man and natural man(as you correctly understood having potential for doing good and evil within him). So, thanks to Satan Adam finally had an opposition in him - natural man. Before fall Adam didn't have natural man in him, he was spiritual man(man who does not sin, not to confuse with spirit). Spiritual man is opposition to natural man. Spiritual man wants to do good, natural man can wish to do evil or things that are opposite to God's laws. When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit they did it in their innocence, they didn't understand that what they did was evil/wrong. Or good.
So, because God sent Lucifer, Adam could make a choice and to become mortal or fallen. And thanks to Satan we are also mortal or in fallen state so we have this nature with two opposites.
So, we don't really need Lucifer and demons any more. But everything had to start somehow. It started in the garden of Eden. Thanks to Satan because he helped that everything will start, we have plenty of bad influences(evil people) in our lives and we have flesh that is very often in opposition with spiritual man in us. Flesh demands things that spirit is not willing to do.
But evil or bad people are allowed to have influence on us, Lucifer and demons are also still allowed to have influence on us. If I resist evil(natural man in me), if I am strong enough to fight this natural man or desires of my flesh, Lucifer may want to make it harder for me Or bad person/people who sees me change may want to stop me. Yes, it may be much harder to make moral choice when someone is trying to influence me, but still I am not robbed from my agency. I still have it. I still can make spiritual man in me to overcome natural man.
Yes, it is harder but nobody said that test of this life has to be easy.
epronovost Wrote:If you don't know what it is to be a ruler, then you lack imagination my dear. Play a strategy game or give orders, dispense punishment and rewards. It's going to give you glimpse of what it is.
I don't need to play strategy games to have a glimpse of what it is. I can use my imagination to have glimpse. But I was talking about full understanding.

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23-12-2015, 05:30 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 05:38 PM by Alla.)
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
Short summary of what I was saying:
1) in pre-mortal life children of God were presented with plan of happiness or plan of salvation.
2) we had agency: we could either accept it or reject it.
3)God said we would have to prove to Him and to ourselves that that we could choose the right(good). God also said that we would all sin because we would be in fallen state.
4)God said that because of our fallen state, we wouldn't be able to return to Him if someone wouldn't redeem us from this mortal or fallen state.
5)God asked: whom should I send to be a Savior?
6) Yahweh or the very first Son of God (Jesus) said: Father, send Me and I will do your will
7)Then another one, Lucifer, said: Father, send me and I will make sure that all children would be saved but for this I want all your glory and I want you to worship me.
So, Lucifer wanted to destroy our agency. He wanted to force us to do good.
8) Of course, Father rejected Lucifer's offer. we suppose to have agency. Lucifer got angry and rebelled against God. 1/3 of God's children followed Lucifer. So, Father lost 1/3 of His children. They became demons or fallen angels. They will never have physical bodies, they will never become Gods. There was war in heaven. Michael was a head of God's army.
9) Someone had to come first to this earth to become a fallen or mortal man. Michael was the chosen one. In this life he is known as Adam. He was spiritual man before fall and he didn't know what good or evil were. He completely forgot about his pre-mortal life. We call it "veil".
10) So, only mortal or fallen man can live in fallen world. But Father couldn't force Adam to become mortal and learn pain and suffering. Adam had to make this choice. He had agency.
These things had to happen in order for Adam to make choice to become mortal or fallen:
a) God had to give two commandments. It was not possible to obey one without breaking the other.
b) Satan had to inform Adam about opposite choice and promise. Satan didn't know all the details of plan of God. He wanted to destroy Adam and God's plan.
c) Satan approached Adam first and offered fruit and some great promises. Adam rejected offer. Then Satan approached Eve and offered to her great promises. Eve was tempted and she wanted to learn about good and evil, to become like Gods.
d)Eve told Adam about what she did. So, Adam had to make a choice between God's commandments: LEAVE your FATHER and CLEAVE to your wife and multiply and replenish the earth, or don't eat the fruit.
Adam chose the first commandment of God: to multiply and replenish by cleaving to his wife and by LEAVING his FATHER.
Lucifer/Satan played an important role. If Adam and Eve did not partake of the fruit they would remain in the garden forever, they would never have children, they would never have eternal life(progression) and everything would remain in the same state, plan of God would fail.

2/3 of children of God(angels) come to this earth to obtain physical bodies and to be tested in all things.
Even though we don't need demons or some people to make evil choices, but they can make it harder for us to choose good. And as I said, by doing it, they don't rob our agency but they make this test to be harder. And as I said it is not suppose to be easy in mortality.

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24-12-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: In Uncharted Lands with Alla
epronovost:History teacher and historian, active feminist, atheist and little bit socialist. For these reasons, conservative people rarely like me.

Alla: I like history teachers, historians, active feminists, atheists and a little bit socialists. I am conservative.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS, dear epronovost !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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