In the beginning God
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14-03-2014, 01:11 PM
In the beginning God
Ok so I am not really hip to lots of sciency stuff. I do not plan to debate anyone, but after reading through some of the debate between Dark Pheonix and Alpha I have a lot of questions about the universe.
Okay so it seems like most people agree that the universe has a beginning, and it is not eternal?
Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?
Do we know where the universe ends? Is it possible for something to travel outside of the universe? Do we know for certain that there aren't more universes beyond ours? Would it not be just as logical to assume the universe was created by something that is not a god, or that the universe just spontaneously popped into existence for some reason that we cannot understand?
Ok smarties. Someone tell me something and help me understand this please Smile

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14-03-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: In the beginning God
You are correct in that anything can be proposed to account for what existed before the big bang and outside of the observable universe, and to insert god as the answer is just an easy way out. As far as eternal or not, single or multiple - dunno?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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14-03-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:19 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  You are correct in that anything can be proposed to account for what existed before the big bang and outside of the observable universe, and to insert god as the answer is just an easy way out. As far as eternal or not, single or multiple - dunno?

Well I know for sure that I do not know lol. By your dunno are you saying that no one knows or just that you don't know?

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14-03-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Ok so I am not really hip to lots of sciency stuff. I do not plan to debate anyone, but after reading through some of the debate between Dark Pheonix and Alpha I have a lot of questions about the universe.
Okay so it seems like most people agree that the universe has a beginning, and it is not eternal?

Well This universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe whether there was anything before what we call the big bang is unknown (and also illogical since spacetime began with the big bang, so before the big bang is like saying south of the south pole)

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?

Watchmaker fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Do we know where the universe ends? Is it possible for something to travel outside of the universe? Do we know for certain that there aren't more universes beyond ours? Would it not be just as logical to assume the universe was created by something that is not a god, or that the universe just spontaneously popped into existence for some reason that we cannot understand?
Ok smarties. Someone tell me something and help me understand this please Smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_a...g_universe

Well Hawking favors the Big Freeze theory, that the universe will continue to expand exponentially and will suffer a heat death as all the atoms continue to spread.

Alternate theory is The Big Crunch which says everything would end up being compressed into a singularity.

Right now it seems like the math favors the Big Freeze but either is possible.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-03-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?

Once upon a time, ten words...

In the beginning, god createed the heavens and the earth.

Yet, everybody wants to be the writer, and not the editor. As a prophet, I contest the contention is not heavens. Is not, earth. But rather, the beginning.

In

The Beginning,

Gwyneth Paltrow created me...

Note the difference?

Of the ten words, nouns are placed to emphasize; not Creation, not the world, but rather... in the beginning.

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14-03-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Ok so I am not really hip to lots of sciency stuff. I do not plan to debate anyone, but after reading through some of the debate between Dark Pheonix and Alpha I have a lot of questions about the universe.
Okay so it seems like most people agree that the universe has a beginning, and it is not eternal?

Well This universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe whether there was anything before what we call the big bang is unknown (and also illogical since spacetime began with the big bang, so before the big bang is like saying south of the south pole)

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?

Watchmaker fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Do we know where the universe ends? Is it possible for something to travel outside of the universe? Do we know for certain that there aren't more universes beyond ours? Would it not be just as logical to assume the universe was created by something that is not a god, or that the universe just spontaneously popped into existence for some reason that we cannot understand?
Ok smarties. Someone tell me something and help me understand this please Smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_a...g_universe

Well Hawking favors the Big Freeze theory, that the universe will continue to expand exponentially and will suffer a heat death as all the atoms continue to spread.

Alternate theory is The Big Crunch which says everything would end up being compressed into a singularity.

Right now it seems like the math favors the Big Freeze but either is possible.

You see this spacetime is what puts my brain into overload. How can we possibly know that it didn't exist? Is it not possible that spacetime existed only in a different universe?
Beginning and end are terms that kill me. I don't know why. Science isn't really my thing although I didn't enjoy chemistry in highschool. In my mind it makes more sense that the "death" of a previous universe could have caused the Big Bang and in turn created our universe and reset spacetime. I think I just have a hard time accepting that there could hve been nothing before the Big Bang. How can there be nothing...

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Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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14-03-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Ok so I am not really hip to lots of sciency stuff. I do not plan to debate anyone, but after reading through some of the debate between Dark Pheonix and Alpha I have a lot of questions about the universe.
Most of these are uncertain, but I'll take them one at a time.
Quote:Okay so it seems like most people agree that the universe has a beginning, and it is not eternal?
This one definitely falls in the "uncertain" category. The evidence we have says that at one point everything in the observable universe existed in a single point and then began expanding. We don't know for sure if there was anything before that. There are hypotheses that our universe may have exploded out of another universe, as well as hypotheses that there was nothing before hand.

This all gets further muddied by the fact that it's hard to actually define "nothing" and "before" is pretty meaningless if time did not exist prior to the big bang.
Quote:Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?
Science is hard. I read theoretical books and understand most of the underlying physics behind cosmology and I still struggle with concepts sometimes.

For many, it's easier to just say "god did it" and leave it at that. It's intellectually lazy, but it keeps many people from hurting their brain. lol

Quote:Do we know where the universe ends?
This requires a bit of clarification. When most people talk about "the universe", they're actually talking about the "observable universe". This is the furthest distance from earth that we can see (approx 13.8 billion light years). We can only see this far because light from further out hasn't had time to reach us.

The entire universe (furthest reaches of expansion) is much larger. I can't remember exactly, but I want to say something like 70 billion light years. across.

Quote: Is it possible for something to travel outside of the universe?
I'm a bit fuzzy on this one, but I'll give you my take.

No. Let's say we had a theoretical ship that could take us to anywhere in the universe. Once we reached the outer bounds of expansion, there would be no more space to fly through. Physics would break down outside the outer limits of space as physics are a property of space/time.

Quote: Do we know for certain that there aren't more universes beyond ours?
Nope. There could be nothing, or there could be an infinite number of universes, either parallel or independent. String Theory says that there ARE multiple universes spanning several dimensions, but String Theory is far from proven fact.
Quote:Would it not be just as logical to assume the universe was created by something that is not a god, or that the universe just spontaneously popped into existence for some reason that we cannot understand?
More logical in fact. If there were a being outside the universe and greater than the universe, it's possible that it created our universe. While possible, not much credence is given to this hypothesis as there is zero evidence to support such a claim.

As for it coming from "nothing", that's not only more logical, but actually quite probable. Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing" does a pretty good job of explaining it. I just finished the book, but he gives lectures on it. Here's a video of one of those lectures



Quote:Ok smarties. Someone tell me something and help me understand this please Smile

Hope this helps and I haven't confused you further. Let me know if I can answer in any more detail.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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14-03-2014, 01:55 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:37 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Beginning and end are terms that kill me.

Obviously. Big Grin

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14-03-2014, 02:00 PM
Re: RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 01:39 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  This requires a bit of clarification. When most people talk about "the universe", they're actually talking about the "observable universe". This is the furthest distance from earth that we can see (approx 13.8 billion light years). We can only see this far because light from further out hasn't had time to reach us.

I thought 13.8 bly was the extent of the observable limit, before that it was sort of 'opaque'? not because that light hasn't had time to reach us. You can't really state that light hasn't had time to reach us, not logical really unless you want to alter the speed of light.

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14-03-2014, 02:03 PM
RE: In the beginning God
In order.

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Why would someone think that the only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some sort of god?

Because that's the answer they want.

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Do we know where the universe ends?

No.

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Is it possible for something to travel outside of the universe?

Heck no.

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Do we know for certain that there aren't more universes beyond ours?

No.

(14-03-2014 01:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Would it not be just as logical to assume the universe was created by something that is not a god, or that the universe just spontaneously popped into existence for some reason that we cannot understand?

Yes.

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