In the beginning God
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14-03-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 02:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  No, because as a violation of causality that would involve travelling faster than light.

Since the propagation of consequences from one's act can only travel at lightspeed, to outpace them you'd have to outpace light. Which is, so far as we know, impossible.

It's not impossible to travel faster than light. It is impossible to travel faster than light through space. If you could somehow warp space around you like in an Aclubierre Drive, you could travel from point A to point B in less time than it would take light to get there. There's also wormhole theories that involve bending space so that the two points occupy the same point.

IF one of these methods (or something no one has thought of yet) pans out and we are able to travel faster than light, then you could fly from one point to the other and look back through a telescope to a point before you left. You could actually watch yourself leave.

That it so cool! Now, if only I knew how to warp space. I hope someone thinks of something that pans out in my lifetime.

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14-03-2014, 03:39 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:35 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It's not impossible to travel faster than light. It is impossible to travel faster than light through space. If you could somehow warp space around you like in an Aclubierre Drive, you could travel from point A to point B in less time than it would take light to get there. There's also wormhole theories that involve bending space so that the two points occupy the same point.

IF one of these methods (or something no one has thought of yet) pans out and we are able to travel faster than light, then you could fly from one point to the other and look back through a telescope to a point before you left. You could actually watch yourself leave.

That it so cool! Now, if only I knew how to warp space. I hope someone thinks of something that pans out in my lifetime.

The Alcubierre drive is actually pretty probable... except for the energy source. You'd need a power plant the size of Jupiter to push something the size of a minivan with current tech. So, unless someone discovers a way to make energy in quantities that are orders of magnitude greater than what we can do now, unfortunately we're stuck in this solar system.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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14-03-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 02:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  No, because as a violation of causality that would involve travelling faster than light.

Since the propagation of consequences from one's act can only travel at lightspeed, to outpace them you'd have to outpace light. Which is, so far as we know, impossible.

It's not impossible to travel faster than light. It is impossible to travel faster than light through space. If you could somehow warp space around you like in an Aclubierre Drive, you could travel from point A to point B in less time than it would take light to get there. There's also wormhole theories that involve bending space so that the two points occupy the same point.

Well, sure. In principle if you could travel by magical handwave you could watch your own actions unfold.

And for "magical handwave" read "warp drive".
Wink

Which of course we can't rule out - we don't know what we don't know - but on the other hand, if something is possible, is it not then also possible if not likely that someone else out there found it possible? Now, I'm not saying this proves reptiloid aliens live among us, but...
Tongue

(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  IF one of these methods (or something no one has thought of yet) pans out and we are able to travel faster than light, then you could fly from one point to the other and look back through a telescope to a point before you left. You could actually watch yourself leave.

You know I said so far as we know, right? I think that covers "something no one has thought of yet".
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14-03-2014, 03:46 PM
Re: RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:15 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 02:52 PM)TubbyTubby Wrote:  The observable limit being background radiation then? How could there be stars past that horizon?

Yes, we can't see past the background radiation. There aren't stars past that horizon. The horizon just isn't where it appears to be. Where we see things that are near that horizon is actually where they were 13.8 b years ago. We're seeing the light that left them around the time of the big bang. In a billion years, that barrier will appear to be 14.8 bly away because that's how long it took the light to get to us. But remember, even though we're seeing light from it's position 13.8 b years ago, it has been moving away from us during those 13 b years due to the expansion of the universe.

We agree then, thank you.

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14-03-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:39 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 03:35 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  That it so cool! Now, if only I knew how to warp space. I hope someone thinks of something that pans out in my lifetime.

The Alcubierre drive is actually pretty probable... except for the energy source. You'd need a power plant the size of Jupiter to push something the size of a minivan with current tech. So, unless someone discovers a way to make energy in quantities that are orders of magnitude greater than what we can do now, unfortunately we're stuck in this solar system.

Yeah, but with enough energy available anything is easy!

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14-03-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  It's not impossible to travel faster than light. It is impossible to travel faster than light through space. If you could somehow warp space around you like in an Aclubierre Drive, you could travel from point A to point B in less time than it would take light to get there. There's also wormhole theories that involve bending space so that the two points occupy the same point.

Well, sure. In principle if you could travel by magical handwave you could watch your own actions unfold.

And for "magical handwave" read "warp drive".
Wink

Which of course we can't rule out - we don't know what we don't know - but on the other hand, if something is possible, is it not then also possible if not likely that someone else out there found it possible? Now, I'm not saying this proves reptiloid aliens live among us, but...
Tongue
It totally proves retiloids. In fact, there's one right behind you. Tongue

I haven't ruled out the possibility that aliens are travelling the universe. As for why we haven't been contacted, perhaps we're too unevolved and primitive, or they have a "prime directive" of sorts, or they simply haven't found us yet. It's a big damn universe with a lot of places that might have life. Even if an alien species on the opposite side of our galaxy were super advanced, they may not know we exist. Any transmissions that would be identifiable have barely reached the closest few hundred stars and if they were searching every potentially habitable planet, they'd still not reach ours for millennia.
Quote:
(14-03-2014 03:30 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  IF one of these methods (or something no one has thought of yet) pans out and we are able to travel faster than light, then you could fly from one point to the other and look back through a telescope to a point before you left. You could actually watch yourself leave.

You know I said so far as we know, right? I think that covers "something no one has thought of yet".
Big Grin

Forgive the pedantry, but we DO know that it is possible. Not how to actually do it, but we know that it is possible to do so.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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14-03-2014, 03:54 PM
Re: RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:02 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  We need to flush Miss Meng's crap out and replace it with threads full of smart people talking.

Don't build your hopes up, I'm a virgin in astro physics and such, I just get feisty on occasion.

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14-03-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 03:51 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I haven't ruled out the possibility that aliens are travelling the universe. As for why we haven't been contacted, perhaps we're too unevolved and primitive, or they have a "prime directive" of sorts, or they simply haven't found us yet. It's a big damn universe with a lot of places that might have life. Even if an alien species on the opposite side of our galaxy were super advanced, they may not know we exist. Any transmissions that would be identifiable have barely reached the closest few hundred stars and if they were searching every potentially habitable planet, they'd still not reach ours for millennia.

Actual transmissions would decohere much faster than that anyway.

No, it's the "millennia" that's the problem; life more or less as we know it could have existed at any time in the last several hundred million years.

Which, sure, is not to say any putative interaction with pre-human Earth would have left any evidence at all. S'just that allowing for alien life, and allowing for contra-relativistic travel through spacetime, you've got to account for why we don't see it happening!

(14-03-2014 03:51 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
Quote:You know I said so far as we know, right? I think that covers "something no one has thought of yet".
Big Grin

Forgive the pedantry, but we DO know that it is possible. Not how to actually do it, but we know that it is possible to do so.

Well, now it's my turn to be pedantic: while we know that warping spacetime is in principle possible we have no idea by what means such would be done nor by what energies such would be accomplished. And I'd call that a solid "don't know".
Cool

What we have is a solution set to the relativistic field equations. We simply don't know whether that represents a physically valid solution.

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14-03-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 02:15 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  (from your own personal perspective, of course)

Ah, the always rare double redundancy. Smartass

Just kidding, good stuff, though.

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14-03-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: In the beginning God
(14-03-2014 04:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 03:51 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I haven't ruled out the possibility that aliens are travelling the universe. As for why we haven't been contacted, perhaps we're too unevolved and primitive, or they have a "prime directive" of sorts, or they simply haven't found us yet. It's a big damn universe with a lot of places that might have life. Even if an alien species on the opposite side of our galaxy were super advanced, they may not know we exist. Any transmissions that would be identifiable have barely reached the closest few hundred stars and if they were searching every potentially habitable planet, they'd still not reach ours for millennia.

Actual transmissions would decohere much faster than that anyway.

No, it's the "millennia" that's the problem; life more or less as we know it could have existed at any time in the last several hundred million years.

Which, sure, is not to say any putative interaction with pre-human Earth would have left any evidence at all. S'just that allowing for alien life, and allowing for contra-relativistic travel through spacetime, you've got to account for why we don't see it happening!

(14-03-2014 03:51 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Forgive the pedantry, but we DO know that it is possible. Not how to actually do it, but we know that it is possible to do so.

Well, now it's my turn to be pedantic: while we know that warping spacetime is in principle possible we have no idea by what means such would be done nor by what energies such would be accomplished. And I'd call that a solid "don't know".
Cool

What we have is a solution set to the relativistic field equations. We simply don't know whether that represents a physically valid solution.


Fair enough on the how of it.


I was thinking more about advanced life that exists now and in our galaxy. There's enough time and space that there could have been countless interstellar empires across the universe that never got farther than their arm of their galaxy. Hell, there could be an interstellar war going on somewhere right now that we'll never know about. We've only just directly photographed an exoplanet, and those are relatively close.

Think about how a species that has FTL travel would spread. They'd colonize the closest habitable planets first. Kepler has found 69 potentially habitable planets in the small bit it has searched. If that's pretty standard, there could easily be an advanced race somewhere in our arm of the galaxy that has no idea we exist because they haven't searched this far yet.

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In short, who knows what's out there and if we'll ever know about it?
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