In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
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04-11-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(04-11-2013 09:39 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I did make the point about " why WOULD you choose."

You just got to uppercut them a little harder in their PC self assured righteous bullshit. Evil_monster


And in all actuality, if the teacher wanted to have some real fun and make a real learning experience out of it, he'd make it a research project and a debate where you have to defend your opposite view. Make the ignorant bigots research the opposition so that they see, and have to argue for, the opposition. Make them argue in favor of non-discrimination.

Plus it would be super easy for you, you can already quote the Bible at them better than they can!

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04-11-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
the simple case for Gay marriage is to ask people to think of gay people they know, and ask them at what age they noticed the "Gayness"

Foxx can be a dick but his born Gay podcast is valid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_rRZC-Mhso

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-11-2013, 11:00 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2013 11:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
There are at least three issues. The legal ones, and the scientific ones, and the religious ones.
1. No one has a right to force their religious views on anyone. This is not a theocracy. The Declaration of Independence says we are all born with (equal) inalienable rights. Does any one of them accept that their right to get married can be voted on, or legislated, or take away ? No. If they are consistent, they have to agree if THEY have that inalienable right, so does everyone. The first Americans specifically came here to escape religious imperialism, which is what they are trying to do.
2. Sexual orientation is not a choice. Science has proven that. If god didn't want same sex behaviors in humans, why did he allow it in (his) creation ? If they have a right to use their sexual faculties, then why can they deny it to some ? When exactly did they "choose" to be straight ?
3. The reason it's in the OT is very specifically for cultural reasons, not "religious" reasons. They need to be educated about the origins of the laws in Hebrew culture. They did not come from the gods. They came from the culture, in the ancient Near East. There is no reason why ancient cultural customs have to inform human laws in 2013. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rah?page=2 post 19
St. Paul told them they are freed from the "old law".
A few more things they probably don't pay any attention to :
1. Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God (2:11)
2. Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13)
3. Eating fat (3:17)
4. Eating blood (3:17)
5. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1)
6. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1)
7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2)
8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4)
9. Deceiving a neighbor about something trusted to them (6:2)
10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3)
11. Bringing unauthorized fire before God (10:1)
12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)
13. Tearing your clothes (10:6)
14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (bit of a problem for Catholics, this one) (10:9)
15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)
16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8)
17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)
18. Eating – or touching the carcass of - eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19)
19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)
20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27)
21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29)
22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42)
23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)
24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)
25. Having sex with your mother (18:7)
26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8)
27. Having sex with your sister (18:9)
28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)
29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)
30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13)
31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14)
32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15)33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16)
34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (bad news for Alan Clark) (18:17)
35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)
36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)
37. Having sex with your neighbor's wife (18:20)
38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)
39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22)
40. Having sex with an animal (18:23)
41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4)
42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)
43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)
44. Stealing (19:11)
45. Lying (19:11)
46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12)
47. Defrauding your neighbor (19:13)
48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (not well observed these days) (19:13)
49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)
50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)
51. Spreading slander (19:16)
52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbor's life (19:16)
53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18)
54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19)
56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)
57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20)
58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)
59. Practicing divination or seeking omens (tut, tut astrology) (19:26)
60. Trimming your beard (19:27)
61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)
62. Getting tattoos (19:28)
63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29)
64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31)
65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32)
66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34)
67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36)
68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)
69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13)
70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11)
71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28)
72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3)73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14)
74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22)
75. Selling land permanently (25:23)
76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (foreigners are fine) (25:42)

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05-11-2013, 01:25 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:

At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.
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05-11-2013, 01:54 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:

At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.


We're better? As far as I know we're the only species that is homophobic, enslaves one another, and murders each other over discrepant interpretations of our imaginary friends.


Sometimes I think we'd all be better off as dolphins...

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05-11-2013, 02:04 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(04-11-2013 11:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are at least three issues. The legal ones, and the scientific ones, and the religious ones.
1. No one has a right to force their religious views on anyone. This is not a theocracy. The Declaration of Independence says we are all born with (equal) inalienable rights. Does any one of them accept that their right to get married can be voted on, or legislated, or take away ? No. If they are consistent, they have to agree if THEY have that inalienable right, so does everyone. The first Americans specifically came here to escape religious imperialism, which is what they are trying to do.

Weirdly I had not considered this in the way you explained it, no need for any other reasons. If it can be show that its only religious offensiveness blocking Gay Marriage.

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05-11-2013, 02:07 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 01:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.


We're better? As far as I know we're the only species that is homophobic, enslaves one another, and murders each other over discrepant interpretations of our imaginary friends.


Sometimes I think we'd all be better off as dolphins...

Better in the sense that we can choose. The priest who is attracted to young children doesn't have a choice about who he finds attractive, but does have a choice about whether or not to abuse a child.

I don't think the argument, "gays don't choose to be gays and therefore should be allowed to marry" is very compelling.
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05-11-2013, 02:50 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 02:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We're better? As far as I know we're the only species that is homophobic, enslaves one another, and murders each other over discrepant interpretations of our imaginary friends.


Sometimes I think we'd all be better off as dolphins...

Better in the sense that we can choose. The priest who is attracted to young children doesn't have a choice about who he finds attractive, but does have a choice about whether or not to abuse a child.

I don't think the argument, "gays don't choose to be gays and therefore should be allowed to marry" is very compelling.

It can be useful if the other person's argument is that gays choose to be gay.
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05-11-2013, 02:57 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 02:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Better in the sense that we can choose. The priest who is attracted to young children doesn't have a choice about who he finds attractive, but does have a choice about whether or not to abuse a child.


When a pedophile priest molests a child it is a FAR reach from mature same sex couples wanting to marry the person they love.

I'll keep it simple for you. The keyword is: CONSENT.

Religion is not a compelling enough reason to discriminate against same sex couples; religion doesn't have a monopoly on marriage, especially as recognized by secular governments. Tradition is not a compelling enough reason to discriminate; the definition of 'marriage' can, has, and indeed will change over time. These people love each other, and want to share in the social institution that represents the greatest social commitment and dedication between two people who love each other. Who the hell cares whether or not their 'equipment' makes up a matching set? That should only be a concern for them, and if they're comfortable with it, then it's nobody else's business to stop them.


(05-11-2013 02:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't think the argument, "gays don't choose to be gays and therefore should be allowed to marry" is very compelling.

That's because it's not compelling on purpose, it's a strawman...

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05-11-2013, 03:45 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
Quote:I don't know, was I wrong to openly criticize the Old Testament in this context?

The only time it's not okay to criticize (IMO) religion is at funerals.
Just shut up and go with the flow, funerals are not the place for religious argument.

Everywhere else, and especially the classroom, are fair game.

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