In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
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05-11-2013, 04:36 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:
At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.

If you accept that orientation is not a choice, and there is no significant harm for a proportion of the population to act in accordance with that orientation, then the rest is not a question of choice but of simple equity. It is a question of whether society chooses to deprive individuals of their right to make their own choices. Are you arguing that society should restrict the choice of individuals to copulate and marry in a homosexual fashion?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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05-11-2013, 06:35 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
Have you listened to John Corvino on the immorality of gay marriage?

Evolution kills introduced me to those videos, and I'm grateful. John corvino is eloquent

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-11-2013, 07:56 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:

At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.

Actually, Blowjob, if you had read what he said, he said humans do not have "free will". If choices are made, in human brains before we are fully conscious of them, or even EVER conscious of all the elements that enter in the choice process, (proven on MRI scan, and PET scan), it can hardly be said to be "free will". Having sex with anyone is a "free choice". That's not the point. You missed the "point". The point is, that humans have a vast range of sexual behaviors. Some are unacceptable because they cause harm. There is no harm caused by consenting adults having sex, when they are engaged in behaviors they desire to engage in. Your pathetic (and so usual and OLD boring) attempt to conflate illegal behaviors with children, with a normal variant of sexual behavior, found everywhere in nature, is simply ignorance of the field of Human Sexual Behavior. Humans have the right to marry someone of the gender they are attracted to. Saying someone who was born as a homosexual can choose to marry someone they are not attracted to, is simply idiotic. But that is what you usually spout here. Idiocy.

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05-11-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:

At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.

You realize that If I were going to nitpick you, that humans ARE animals, right? Just like bees are animals...

I think you mean that humans are a better subcategory of animals, such as, say, raccoons, rabbits and dogs. However, I would also beg to differ on that point as well. My dog is better than any person on this planet. His kindness knows no bounds. He is blind of all bigotry, regardless of your sex, gender, wealth, age, race. It doesn't matter to him. Love him, and he will love you back. Its really that simple to him. Humans are dumb, panic driven, pack and herd animals. Often incapable of making our own choices. Sheep, if you will.

Animals, like the kind you are referring to, do not kill for pleasure. They kill for survival. Humans, we do not do this. Animals exists in harmony with their environment...humans are glorified parasites. Even in death, we do not give back to the earth our bodies, as fast as we take from it.
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05-11-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
Humans are better because of reasons, what reasons? human reasons of course Smile

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05-11-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  So, last Friday, World History was my first class of the day, and my teacher decided he would let us pick a topic to debate about. I suggested Government Discrimination Laws, but that was shot down, and somebody suggested Gay marriage.

Well, we split up into two groups, and out of fourteen people, I was one of the only four who supported Gay marriage.

So it was ten going against four, and I started listing off reasons as to why the government has no right denying same-sex marriage, since marriage is no longer a religious institution.

I think I handled myself well, I disapproved the "Its a choice" statement by telling them this:

"Alright, assuming we humans have free will according to the Catholic Church, we don't, but let's assume so for the sake of the argument. The Catholic Church teaches that humans, and humans alone have free will, I.e choice. Animals do not.

Scientists have observed over 1,500 different species of animals participating in homosexual behavior. So, if according to Catholics, only humans have free will, how are these animals CHOOSING to be homosexual?"

I thought it was a pretty convincing argument, but they merely brushed it aside saying that "We may not have science, but we have God, and he says that being gay, or participating in homosexual acts is sinful."

I retorted by asking them a simple question: "Where exactly does it say in the bible that Jesus condemned Homosexualiy? Nowhere. Where does it say in the bible? In Leviticus. You know what else is in Leviticus? That you shouldn't shave, or eat crawfish. And by the way, Jesus himself didn't follow the law, and neither do any of you. Condemnation of homosexuality is in the Old Testament, and so is having slaves and ritual sacrifices."

"But Steven," A really attractive Airhead begins, "You are an atheist, so you have no right to tell us what God said or thinks."

"I probably have read the bible more times than you, and I don't need to believe in a God to understand the sentences in the Bible."

I think it is a shame that they side tracked the discussion, and made it about me when I was simply arguing for free rights.

I don't know, was I wrong to openly criticize the Old Testament in this context?
I think you did a good job, but you probably had little chance of anyone on the other side admitting you made any good points.

An approach I have taken with varied success (depending on how open-minded the other person in the discussion was) is to start by asking aside from "God says so", what exactly is morally wrong with homosexuality. The two answers I generally get are 1) it's not natural or 2) spreading AIDS. I answer the first by bringing up the animal world as you did and pointing out that it obviously is natural to those who engage in homosexuality. For number 2, I point out that heterosexuality also spreads diseases including AIDS and they have no problem with that.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-11-2013, 12:19 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 02:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We're better? As far as I know we're the only species that is homophobic, enslaves one another, and murders each other over discrepant interpretations of our imaginary friends.


Sometimes I think we'd all be better off as dolphins...

Better in the sense that we can choose. The priest who is attracted to young children doesn't have a choice about who he finds attractive, but does have a choice about whether or not to abuse a child.

I don't think the argument, "gays don't choose to be gays and therefore should be allowed to marry" is very compelling.
Homosexuality is not a choice. As far as acting upon the homosexual desires, saying homosexuals can choose is markedly different from saying they should choose. So what if they can. Why should they? And what makes you think animals can't choose? I'm more inclined to believe they don't choose because, again, why should they?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-11-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
Can i just say something?
I asked this to a classmate,and yaknow what he said? Male-female sex is more satisfying than male-male or female-female sex.
That was an epic facepalm there

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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05-11-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 12:59 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  Can i just say something?
I asked this to a classmate,and yaknow what he said? Male-female sex is more satisfying than male-male or female-female sex.
That was an epic facepalm there

I would counter with, "does your opinion come from experience?" Laughat

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05-11-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: In world history class, I got into a debate about Gay Marriage!
(05-11-2013 07:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  At best all you can show is that the orientation is not a choice. As you pointed out, human beings have free will and can choose or not choose to engage in certain behaviors. Having sex with a person of the same sex is clearly a choice. Choosing to "marry" a person of the same sex is also clearly a choice. Homosexuals, like any other person, are better than animals and you should never imply that they are like animals in that they have no choice.

Actually, Blowjob, if you had read what he said, he said humans do not have "free will". If choices are made, in human brains before we are fully conscious of them, or even EVER conscious of all the elements that enter in the choice process, (proven on MRI scan, and PET scan), it can hardly be said to be "free will". Having sex with anyone is a "free choice". That's not the point. You missed the "point". The point is, that humans have a vast range of sexual behaviors. Some are unacceptable because they cause harm. There is no harm caused by consenting adults having sex, when they are engaged in behaviors they desire to engage in. Your pathetic (and so usual and OLD boring) attempt to conflate illegal behaviors with children, with a normal variant of sexual behavior, found everywhere in nature, is simply ignorance of the field of Human Sexual Behavior. Humans have the right to marry someone of the gender they are attracted to. Saying someone who was born as a homosexual can choose to marry someone they are not attracted to, is simply idiotic. But that is what you usually spout here. Idiocy.

Actually Sucky Balls, if you had read what he said, he said he argued as if humans had free will....but your reading comprehension skills are so poor you missed it.

I was critical of the OPs tactic because the debate he was having wasn't about the ability or inability to make a choice. It was about what behaviors society should be willing to tolerate. For him to talk about choice was a waste of time because even if homosexuals can't choose their orientation, they can certainly choose their behavior.
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