India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
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11-12-2013, 08:31 PM
India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
This isn't good news for society as a whole.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...hts-world/


I wonder what could have influenced or caused such a major step backwards. I didn't think Hindus had an issue with homosexuality.
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11-12-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
Sad to hear that. It seems to me that eventually, the law will be repealed with enough democratic pressure.

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11-12-2013, 08:46 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
Didn't they just decriminalize it two years ago?
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11-12-2013, 08:59 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
Are there any valid, secular, rational reasons to criminalize gay sex?
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11-12-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
I think this is misleading, and I actually have to agree with the Indian Supreme Court's decision. The Court didn't say whether gay sex should be a crime, they just said that the lower court cannot change the laws. The legislative branch (Congress/Parliament) has to change the laws, and the judicial branch's role is strictly to judge who is and is not breaking the law.

The law is obviously a barbaric relic that should never have been passed in the first place, and India's parliament should strike the law immediately. But I do believe that the power of government should be dispersed between a legislative branch that makes the rules, an executive branch that implements them, and an independent judicial branch that determines who is breaking them.

When you let one branch do a power grab and take over the responsibilities of the other branch, too much power gets concentrated and you lose checks and balances. Like in the US where the executive branch (the President) now makes his own laws (executive orders), and bypasses the judicial branch completely by indefinitely imprisoning or even executing people who have never had access to a judicial process.
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11-12-2013, 09:22 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2013 09:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
(11-12-2013 09:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I think this is misleading, and I actually have to agree with the Indian Supreme Court's decision. The Court didn't say whether gay sex should be a crime, they just said that the lower court cannot change the laws. The legislative branch (Congress/Parliament) has to change the laws, and the judicial branch's role is strictly to judge who is and is not breaking the law.

The law is obviously a barbaric relic that should never have been passed in the first place, and India's parliament should strike the law immediately. But I do believe that the power of government should be dispersed between a legislative branch that makes the rules, an executive branch that implements them, and an independent judicial branch that determines who is breaking them.

When you let one branch do a power grab and take over the responsibilities of the other branch, too much power gets concentrated and you lose checks and balances. Like in the US where the executive branch (the President) now makes his own laws (executive orders), and bypasses the judicial branch completely by indefinitely imprisoning or even executing people who have never had access to a judicial process.


I actually completely agree with this. It's not the job of the court to make law. Unfortunately, Islam is the second largest religion in India, so any change is going to have tough sledding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India
However if the Indian constitution guarantees equality, (which they say it does), then it appears they are not following their own founding documents. If straight people have the right to marry, so do gay people . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India

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11-12-2013, 10:05 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
(11-12-2013 09:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 09:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I think this is misleading, and I actually have to agree with the Indian Supreme Court's decision. The Court didn't say whether gay sex should be a crime, they just said that the lower court cannot change the laws. The legislative branch (Congress/Parliament) has to change the laws, and the judicial branch's role is strictly to judge who is and is not breaking the law.

The law is obviously a barbaric relic that should never have been passed in the first place, and India's parliament should strike the law immediately. But I do believe that the power of government should be dispersed between a legislative branch that makes the rules, an executive branch that implements them, and an independent judicial branch that determines who is breaking them.

When you let one branch do a power grab and take over the responsibilities of the other branch, too much power gets concentrated and you lose checks and balances. Like in the US where the executive branch (the President) now makes his own laws (executive orders), and bypasses the judicial branch completely by indefinitely imprisoning or even executing people who have never had access to a judicial process.


I actually completely agree with this. It's not the job of the court to make law. Unfortunately, Islam is the second largest religion in India, so any change is going to have tough sledding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India
However if the Indian constitution guarantees equality, (which they say it does), then it appears they are not following their own founding documents. If straight people have the right to marry, so do gay people . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India

And constitutionality is the purview of the judiciary.

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12-12-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
(11-12-2013 10:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 09:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  However if the Indian constitution guarantees equality, (which they say it does), then it appears they are not following their own founding documents. If straight people have the right to marry, so do gay people . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India

And constitutionality is the purview of the judiciary.

I think you're chasing a red herring because the actual issue highlights the flaw in your belief system. It's not an issue of equality. They are banning EVERYBODY from having gay sex. Even straight people. Just like marijuana laws don't violate the equality clause for discriminating against "pot smokers". They don't. They ban EVERYBODY from smoking pot, thus equality is not an issue. Besides, there are LOTS of other sex laws on the books. In some states, anal sex is illegal, even between a husband and wife. That's not discrimination--the law DOES apply equally to everybody. It's not a ban on who you are (ie black, asian, etc.), it's a ban on what you do.

The REAL issue is that what we see in India shows the stupidity of letting the government decide what people can and cannot do in private, behind closed doors, even if they're not hurting anyone else. This presents a dilemma for you non-libertarians because you really do want to be able to pass laws dictating morality (like using drugs) and you want to be able to tell people what is acceptable behavior.

Today, being gay is socially acceptable, so you guys realize it's cruel to ban this activity. BUT, just 30 years ago, being gay was socially equivalent to being a pedophile. In 1986 the US Supreme Court ruled that anybody who had gay sex should be locked up in prison. Liberals and democrats were not defending gay people back then. They agreed it was revolting behavior that should not be allowed.

This issue is harder for liberals to accept because then the question becomes "What harmless, private behavior do liberals support criminalizing today, that in 30 years we will look back and see it as barbaric."

The sad reality is that the anti-sodomy laws just show the immorality of letting the majority decide what is acceptable behavior for the minority, and even today there are thousands of banned "behaviors" that are harmless. So if you set aside societal acceptance, I don't see the anti-sodomy laws as being any more egregious than all the other positive laws.
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12-12-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
(12-12-2013 12:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  And constitutionality is the purview of the judiciary.

I think you're chasing a red herring because the actual issue highlights the flaw in your belief system. It's not an issue of equality. They are banning EVERYBODY from having gay sex. Even straight people. Just like marijuana laws don't violate the equality clause for discriminating against "pot smokers". They don't. They ban EVERYBODY from smoking pot, thus equality is not an issue. Besides, there are LOTS of other sex laws on the books. In some states, anal sex is illegal, even between a husband and wife. That's not discrimination--the law DOES apply equally to everybody. It's not a ban on who you are (ie black, asian, etc.), it's a ban on what you do.

The REAL issue is that what we see in India shows the stupidity of letting the government decide what people can and cannot do in private, behind closed doors, even if they're not hurting anyone else. This presents a dilemma for you non-libertarians because you really do want to be able to pass laws dictating morality (like using drugs) and you want to be able to tell people what is acceptable behavior.

Today, being gay is socially acceptable, so you guys realize it's cruel to ban this activity. BUT, just 30 years ago, being gay was socially equivalent to being a pedophile. In 1986 the US Supreme Court ruled that anybody who had gay sex should be locked up in prison. Liberals and democrats were not defending gay people back then. They agreed it was revolting behavior that should not be allowed.

This issue is harder for liberals to accept because then the question becomes "What harmless, private behavior do liberals support criminalizing today, that in 30 years we will look back and see it as barbaric."

The sad reality is that the anti-sodomy laws just show the immorality of letting the majority decide what is acceptable behavior for the minority, and even today there are thousands of banned "behaviors" that are harmless. So if you set aside societal acceptance, I don't see the anti-sodomy laws as being any more egregious than all the other positive laws.

Henceforth on this forum everyone is forbidden from endorsing Libertarian viewpoints. It is not discriminatory because it is equally applied.

Think about how stupid that statement is and get back to us.

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12-12-2013, 12:45 PM
RE: India Makes Gay Sex a Crime
(12-12-2013 12:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Henceforth on this forum everyone is forbidden from endorsing Libertarian viewpoints. It is not discriminatory because it is equally applied.

Think about how stupid that statement is and get back to us.

I don't think it's stupid at all. Classic liberals (libertarians) have always said for centuries that gay people, or any other group, do NOT need anybody else's approval; if they're not directly hurting anybody else, they can do what they want, whether or not the majority accepts it. However, the world doesn't work like that. So the gay community has tirelessly fought your oppression and tyranny, trying to convince you guys that they are human beings like any other and pose no threat to you, knowing that (sadly) they would need your approval and blessing before they could live normal lives. Now you've come around and are empathetic to their plight and the oppression they've suffered, so you're fighting for their rights. Great. But what about all the other groups you're still oppressing because you don't approve of their behavior?

You guys try to dictate every aspect of our lives. You tell us what we can watch and listen to (like Howard Stern's fines). You tell us what games we can play and arrest us if we play ones you don't like (such as online poker). You tell us what food we can eat (like Stevia). You tell us what drugs we can use, and what healthcare systems we can use. You tell us what sex acts are allowed (prostitution). etc. etc.

So you're trying to find an excuse to keep the system of tyranny, but still allow your new gay friends to live happy leaves. So you're claiming it's somehow 'discrimination' and a violation of the constitution. But just like some people prefer gay sex and others straight sex, some prefer smoking cigarettes, others pot, and others (like me) hate smoking altogether. Are you saying it's discrimination of pot smokers to ban smoking pot, and not cigarettes, given the scientific evidence indicates smoking pot is less harmful and less addictive than cigarettes?

The reality is that there are lots of things you guys ban today which I suspect in 30 years we'll look back on with the same contempt as your previous ban on gay sex.
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