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01-04-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(31-03-2015 06:20 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  As fucked up as this is, I still find it encouraging.

Death throes all around, it's gonna get worse before it gets better, but it's happening. The very fact that they're going to these lengths, and the country's reaction to it is more evidence that religion is losing its grip.
Is that a good thing? I used to believe it would be. Now I'm not so sure.

It seems America isn't benefiting at all from more people turning away from religion. I'm not really encountering more atheists out there. What I do see are so called religious people that don't live a godly life. They say they're believers, wear a cross around their neck, but don't follow their religion at all. Its like they believe in god only because they fear the idea of death and want to go to heaven, but do not want to live the judeo-christian way.

Is America any better with people living like this? More people might be supporting gay marriage and abortion these days but moral decay is in full force. Divorce rates, infidelity, 12 year olds sending sexual text messages and being in adult style relationships, gangster culture, drugs everywhere, sex on TV.

I had hoped that an America that started moving from religion would become more educated, our children focusing on math and science. But it seems like kids don't know anything these days. We're falling behind other nations in our education rankings.

Where is the benefit?

Are you suggesting that religion is the solution? There is no evidence of that being true.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-04-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  More people might be supporting gay marriage and abortion these days but moral decay is in full force. Divorce rates, infidelity, 12 year olds sending sexual text messages and being in adult style relationships, gangster culture, drugs everywhere, sex on TV.

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-04-2015, 08:00 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 08:12 AM by Patriot10mm.)
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  Is that a good thing? I used to believe it would be. Now I'm not so sure.

It seems America isn't benefiting at all from more people turning away from religion. I'm not really encountering more atheists out there. What I do see are so called religious people that don't live a godly life. They say they're believers, wear a cross around their neck, but don't follow their religion at all. Its like they believe in god only because they fear the idea of death and want to go to heaven, but do not want to live the judeo-christian way.

Is America any better with people living like this? More people might be supporting gay marriage and abortion these days but moral decay is in full force. Divorce rates, infidelity, 12 year olds sending sexual text messages and being in adult style relationships, gangster culture, drugs everywhere, sex on TV.

I had hoped that an America that started moving from religion would become more educated, our children focusing on math and science. But it seems like kids don't know anything these days. We're falling behind other nations in our education rankings.

Where is the benefit?

Are you suggesting that religion is the solution? There is no evidence of that being true.

I'm not sure. But my parents generation and grandparents generation didn't have these problems (at least not in the numbers we have today) and those generations were much more religious and church going. I'm an atheist so I don't want this to be true but it does make a strong case that religion keeps people out of trouble, at least in American culture. I see it in my own family. The ones that go to church don't have criminal records, don't do drugs, don't have babies before marriage and have steady jobs. The opposite is true for my non religious family members. The majority that don't go to church do drugs, have multiple kids with random people, don't have jobs and have been to prison.

And I should add, when people in my family have got sober and straightened up their life, they become religious. Coincidence? God isn't real but the idea of god can help people and keep them walking a straight line.

Death is a debt we all must pay.
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01-04-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Indiana
Hello and sorry for being very late into the conversation (And not even being remotely involved int he country issue in question) BUT

(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  I'm not sure. But my parents generation and grandparents generation didn't have these problems...

Really? Geeze, your grandparents were sound like truly wonderful people. I definitely remember my grandparents occasionally give out racist and other claims as venerable words of wisdom that comes with age.


(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  (at least not in the numbers we have today) and those generations were much more religious and church going.


I'm also glad that we here don't have the straight razor wielding gangs wandering up and down our major cities grand boulevard unchallenged and unmolested by the police of the day, either. Thank goodness for some progress, hey?

(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  I'm an atheist so I don't want this to be true but it does make a strong case that religion keeps people out of trouble,

Looking at the history I can see, no, no it does not.

(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  At least in American culture. I see it in my own family. The ones that go to church don't have criminal records, don't do drugs, don't have babies before marriage and have steady jobs. The opposite is true for my non religious family members. The majority that don't go to church do drugs, have multiple kids with random people, don't have jobs and have been to prison.

Congratulations and good will to you and your family.

(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  And I should add, when people in my family have got sober and straightened up their life, they become religious. Coincidence? God isn't real but the idea of god can help people and keep them walking a straight line.

There are whole other threads about how wrong/strange this type of mentality is. Might some one else be able to give a link or pointer?

Sorry for the ramble... but personal, subjective experiences aren't a good way to think about running the world.


Much cheers to all.
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01-04-2015, 08:44 AM
Re: Indiana
That might just be your perception of things, not the truth of the matter. My parents generation had issues too, but it kept quiet. My grandparents generation? "Never let anyone know or the family name will be sullied forever!" Perhaps the issues at hand are simply more transparent than in the past.

As far as your take on church going and immoral behavior... I see more church goers lying, stealing, cheating, and just being all around nasty than those who do not attend. I feel that it's because the religious (around here) believe they can be forgiven by their god and poof! everything's fine.

Does that make you wrong and me right? Or vise versa? No, because because both are our personal perceptions of life from our respective regions.
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01-04-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(31-03-2015 06:20 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  As fucked up as this is, I still find it encouraging.

Death throes all around, it's gonna get worse before it gets better, but it's happening. The very fact that they're going to these lengths, and the country's reaction to it is more evidence that religion is losing its grip.
Is that a good thing? I used to believe it would be. Now I'm not so sure.

It seems America isn't benefiting at all from more people turning away from religion. I'm not really encountering more atheists out there. What I do see are so called religious people that don't live a godly life. They say they're believers, wear a cross around their neck, but don't follow their religion at all. Its like they believe in god only because they fear the idea of death and want to go to heaven, but do not want to live the judeo-christian way.

Is America any better with people living like this? More people might be supporting gay marriage and abortion these days but moral decay is in full force. Divorce rates, infidelity, 12 year olds sending sexual text messages and being in adult style relationships, gangster culture, drugs everywhere, sex on TV.

I had hoped that an America that started moving from religion would become more educated, our children focusing on math and science. But it seems like kids don't know anything these days. My 15 year old didn't even know who Wyatt Earp was. She'd couldn't name any major battles of the revolutionary war or civil war. School has become a place where kids hang out with there friends and build social networks. They don't really learn anything. We're falling behind other nations in our education rankings.

Where is the benefit?

You raise a number of issues and that could be an interesting discussion. But, I don't see any evidence that religion is in any way a cause in whatever our societal issues may be.

Btw, Wyatt Earp is a lousy example to make your point. First, he is an extremely minor historical figure. Second, most people who think they know who Earp was are wrong. They know about a fictional character who is based on a real person. But, most of what is generally "known" about him is made up TV stuff. Complaining your daughter doesn't know who Wyatt Earp was is like complaining she doesn't know who Captain Kirk was. I'm with you on the wars though. My 13 year old can't remember what the Civil War was or even who fought in it.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-04-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 07:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you suggesting that religion is the solution? There is no evidence of that being true.

I'm not sure. But my parents generation and grandparents generation didn't have these problems (at least not in the numbers we have today) and those generations were much more religious and church going. I'm an atheist so I don't want this to be true but it does make a strong case that religion keeps people out of trouble, at least in American culture. I see it in my own family. The ones that go to church don't have criminal records, don't do drugs, don't have babies before marriage and have steady jobs. The opposite is true for my non religious family members. The majority that don't go to church do drugs, have multiple kids with random people, don't have jobs and have been to prison.

And I should add, when people in my family have got sober and straightened up their life, they become religious. Coincidence? God isn't real but the idea of god can help people and keep them walking a straight line.

Wait what are "these issue" you think your grandparents and their likes generations didn't have? And you think they were not full of trouble?

You believe drugs, sexuality sharing across preteens, infidelity, etc. are more common now than previously? What is your basis for how things were in these older generations? I'm often impressed so often of this caricature of previous generations having a respectable majority of living class individuals when the reality was no different in these regards than its been the last 30 years. There were some periods of excessive control trying to stomp it out... like rules on what media could produce in magazines and movies, but those came into existence because of the norm of how people had been and clearly were for centuries.

Really we do have a lot more moral questioning and topics coming up for debate across even youthful groups of people. There are less overall violent harmful acts and smuttful diseases or young pregnancy spreading committed in more recent years but it's spoken of daily now so on a base perception it appears it's more common now.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-04-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 09:02 AM)BnW Wrote:  My 13 year old can't remember what the Civil War was or even who fought in it.

It happened in Britain, right?

Between one side called "Round heads" and another group sort of called the "Cavaliers" ?

Am I close.

Tongue
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01-04-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Indiana
No, it was between the Jets and the Sharks. And, they danced a whole lot while fighting.

Duh.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-04-2015, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 11:56 AM by Patriot10mm.)
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  I'm not sure. But my parents generation and grandparents generation didn't have these problems (at least not in the numbers we have today) and those generations were much more religious and church going. I'm an atheist so I don't want this to be true but it does make a strong case that religion keeps people out of trouble, at least in American culture. I see it in my own family. The ones that go to church don't have criminal records, don't do drugs, don't have babies before marriage and have steady jobs. The opposite is true for my non religious family members. The majority that don't go to church do drugs, have multiple kids with random people, don't have jobs and have been to prison.

And I should add, when people in my family have got sober and straightened up their life, they become religious. Coincidence? God isn't real but the idea of god can help people and keep them walking a straight line.

Wait what are "these issue" you think your grandparents and their likes generations didn't have? And you think they were not full of trouble?

You believe drugs, sexuality sharing across preteens, infidelity, etc. are more common now than previously? What is your basis for how things were in these older generations? I'm often impressed so often of this caricature of previous generations having a respectable majority of living class individuals when the reality was no different in these regards than its been the last 30 years. There were some periods of excessive control trying to stomp it out... like rules on what media could produce in magazines and movies, but those came into existence because of the norm of how people had been and clearly were for centuries.

Really we do have a lot more moral questioning and topics coming up for debate across even youthful groups of people. There are less overall violent harmful acts and smuttful diseases or young pregnancy spreading committed in more recent years but it's spoken of daily now so on a base perception it appears it's more common now.
Consider this. According to the CDC, the rate of babies born to unmarried women in 2007 was 2.5 times the rate in 1980 and 19 times (seriously 19 times!!) the rate of 1940. It is not uncommon for a woman to have children from 3-4 different men these days. The CDC says the divorce rate was 20% in 1940, and lower before that. It hit 50% in the 1980's and has lowered some since then, but that's because marriages are less common these days. 47% of high school students are sexually active, and 10,000 cases of HIV infection are affecting our kids as young as 13 every year. These stats are straight from the CDC website. Obviously, something has taken place in America. Is it caused by a lack of religion and church attendance? It's possible.

Death is a debt we all must pay.
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