Indiana
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01-04-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 11:48 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Wait what are "these issue" you think your grandparents and their likes generations didn't have? And you think they were not full of trouble?

You believe drugs, sexuality sharing across preteens, infidelity, etc. are more common now than previously? What is your basis for how things were in these older generations? I'm often impressed so often of this caricature of previous generations having a respectable majority of living class individuals when the reality was no different in these regards than its been the last 30 years. There were some periods of excessive control trying to stomp it out... like rules on what media could produce in magazines and movies, but those came into existence because of the norm of how people had been and clearly were for centuries.

Really we do have a lot more moral questioning and topics coming up for debate across even youthful groups of people. There are less overall violent harmful acts and smuttful diseases or young pregnancy spreading committed in more recent years but it's spoken of daily now so on a base perception it appears it's more common now.
Consider this. According to the CDC, the rate of babies born to unmarried women in 2007 was 2.5 times the rate in 1980 and 19 times (seriously 19 times!!) the rate of 1940. It is not uncommon for a woman to have children from 3-4 different men these days. The CDC says the divorce rate was 20% in 1940, and lower before that. It hit 50% in the 1980's and has lowered some since then, but that's because marriages are less common these days. 47% of high school students are sexually active, and 10,000 cases of HIV infection are affecting our kids as young as 13 every year. These stats are straight from the CDC website.

That's marriage and birthcomparisons... one element and what is the effect of it as something relevant to other beliefs? What's special about the timeline of the 80s and 40s-now? What about the 20? or 1890s? Yes divorce rates are definitely going to be significantly higher, is that a negative or positive thing? Divorce was largely stigmatized more in that timeframe as well. While there is a lot of teenage single mothers, there was too what's the direct rate on that. Single mothers having kids also means single mothers in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s feeling able to take care of children on their own. So the fact that 19x more babies are born to unwed women than in 1940 doesn't directly result to all negative factors. The rate of women being forced to get married when getting pregnant and the rate of women having children in marriages with abusive spouses is potentially much lower than it was in the 40s too.

And what was teenage sexually active rates in these times? It's 47% now.. okay based on what factor? These ideas and numbers get put out blindly as if they mean something but they're blank without any significance actually attributed to them.

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01-04-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  [...] Divorce rates [...]

I'm glad you mentioned that. See, while there are a bunch of Christians, Mormons, and other theists who couch their homophobic bigotry in the language of "sanctity of marriage", I cannot help but notice that not one single believer has pushed a bill in any American legislature to outlaw divorce, which is surely the greatest threat to marriage. Instead, they focus their attention on denying the right to marriage, and divorce, to an entire class of citizens based on ... well ... a distaste for their lifestyle.

The fact that those same theists seem to overwhelmingly support the principle of a small government makes their affected concern doubly hypocritical.

Do you have an opinion on that point?
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01-04-2015, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 02:06 PM by Billy Bob.)
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 11:48 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  Consider this. According to the CDC, the rate of babies born to unmarried women in 2007 was 2.5 times the rate in 1980 and 19 times (seriously 19 times!!) the rate of 1940. It is not uncommon for a woman to have children from 3-4 different men these days. The CDC says the divorce rate was 20% in 1940, and lower before that. It hit 50% in the 1980's and has lowered some since then, but that's because marriages are less common these days. 47% of high school students are sexually active, and 10,000 cases of HIV infection are affecting our kids as young as 13 every year. These stats are straight from the CDC website. Obviously, something has taken place in America. Is it caused by a lack of religion and church attendance? It's possible.

I concede your point. Religion is an effective means of social and mental control.
It is unfortunate that repression is not moral.

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01-04-2015, 05:05 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 07:56 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 02:02 PM)Billy Bob Wrote:  I concede your point. Religion is an effective means of social and mental control.
It is unfortunate that repression is not moral.

Don't make me go all Machiavellian on your Billy Bob butt. Big Grin

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01-04-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 11:48 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  Is it caused by a lack of religion and church attendance? It's possible.

Well, that is not supported by evidence.

Here is a NY Times article from 2013 that discusses the issue. Per this link, Washington DC had the highest percentage of unwed mothers. You can kind of throw that one out because it's not a state but just a big city with a limited population demographic. After that comes Louisiana, Mississippi, and then New Mexico.

According to a recent Gallop Poll, Mississippi has the 2nd highest church attendance in the US. Louisiana is fourth.

Utah has the highest church attendance and also the lowest % of unwed mothers. Vermont has a low % of unwed mothers and the lowest church attendance.

So, I think the evidence is pretty clear there is no direct correlation between going to church and not getting knocked up prior to married (assuming you even get married, more and more people are not).

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02-04-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:16 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 11:48 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  Is it caused by a lack of religion and church attendance? It's possible.

Well, that is not supported by evidence.

Here is a NY Times article from 2013 that discusses the issue. Per this link, Washington DC had the highest percentage of unwed mothers. You can kind of throw that one out because it's not a state but just a big city with a limited population demographic. After that comes Louisiana, Mississippi, and then New Mexico.

According to a recent Gallop Poll, Mississippi has the 2nd highest church attendance in the US. Louisiana is fourth.

Utah has the highest church attendance and also the lowest % of unwed mothers. Vermont has a low % of unwed mothers and the lowest church attendance.

So, I think the evidence is pretty clear there is no direct correlation between going to church and not getting knocked up prior to married (assuming you even get married, more and more people are not).

A very good read, thanks for that link. What I noticed after reading the entire thing is that hispanics and african americans have a higher rate of unwed mothers. So the stats are kind of distorted. Washington D.C. has over 50% black population. Vermont and Utah have mostly white populations, so their unwed mother rates are going to be low anyway. Mississippi has a high rate of unwed mothers but also a high rate of church attendance. Mississippi has a 37% black population, the highest in the nation for a state, which probably explains the high unwed mother rate. Louisiana has the second highest black population, 32%, and a high unwed mother rate. New Mexico has a high unwed mother rate and a high hispanic population.

A telling stat I pulled from the article was that the metro area of Provo-Orem, Utah had the lowest unwed mother rate (even much lower than the % of white unwed mother national average). That area probably has the highest church attendance rate in the nation, right? So obviously religion plays a major factor in chastity in folks who take it seriously and adhere to the rules of their biblical beliefs. And in areas where education rates are high (New Hampshire, Vermont) the unwed mother rate is low as well.

Many factors are playing a roll; race, education, and religious adherence, and the evidence points to all three factors without question.

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02-04-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Indiana
I saw this video that was posted on Penn & Teller's Bullshit page of Penn on CNN talking about the whole Indiana thing and what his views are on it. One of the people he is discussing it with was trying to say that journalists don't write things they don't agree with (what?) and that businesses should be granted the same freedom.

I can see the point of view of not wanting to be coerced to serve a party you don't believe in but at the same time, you have a responsibility to keep in mind that businesses are meant to serve the public and that while you might not agree with some of the people you serve, you have an obligation to fulfill. Don't like it? Get out of the business. We all serve people at work everyday of whom we don't agree with but we still have the capabilities of keeping it professional. I'm obviously preaching to the choir that rulings in an ancient book have no place in a modern society.

Also, like Penn said, anyone under 30 most likely has no problem with anyone who happens to be gay. This problem will be laughable in 30 years.

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03-04-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 08:00 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 07:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you suggesting that religion is the solution? There is no evidence of that being true.

I'm not sure. But my parents generation and grandparents generation didn't have these problems (at least not in the numbers we have today) and those generations were much more religious and church going. I'm an atheist so I don't want this to be true but it does make a strong case that religion keeps people out of trouble, at least in American culture. I see it in my own family. The ones that go to church don't have criminal records, don't do drugs, don't have babies before marriage and have steady jobs. The opposite is true for my non religious family members. The majority that don't go to church do drugs, have multiple kids with random people, don't have jobs and have been to prison.

And I should add, when people in my family have got sober and straightened up their life, they become religious. Coincidence? God isn't real but the idea of god can help people and keep them walking a straight line.

Crime rates have been relatively flat for going on 50 years, so I don't know if I buy that.
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04-04-2015, 12:09 AM
RE: Indiana
(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(31-03-2015 06:20 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  As fucked up as this is, I still find it encouraging.

Death throes all around, it's gonna get worse before it gets better, but it's happening. The very fact that they're going to these lengths, and the country's reaction to it is more evidence that religion is losing its grip.
Is that a good thing? I used to believe it would be. Now I'm not so sure.

The more you post, the more I question that you ever thought it was a good idea.


(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  It seems America isn't benefiting at all from more people turning away from religion. I'm not really encountering more atheists out there. What I do see are so called religious people that don't live a godly life. They say they're believers, wear a cross around their neck, but don't follow their religion at all. Its like they believe in god only because they fear the idea of death and want to go to heaven, but do not want to live the judeo-christian way.

When you stop believing in Santa Claus, what belief do you replace it with?

Nothing?

Right, so why should people who fall out of religion automatically take up anything else? There's nothing that stipulates that all of the non-religious be skeptics and critical thinkers. I mean, just look at you! You suck at both. Drinking Beverage


(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  Is America any better with people living like this? More people might be supporting gay marriage and abortion these days but moral decay is in full force. Divorce rates, infidelity, 12 year olds sending sexual text messages and being in adult style relationships, gangster culture, drugs everywhere, sex on TV.

I'd be a little bit more concerned with our oligarchy than 'gangster culture' (which is a scare word for stupid white people). Moral decay? What can you see on TV that's any worse than what's already in the Bible? Just what I thought, nothing. Genocide? Torture? Rape? It's all already there. But no 'gangster culture', so I guess that's America's real problem... Dodgy


(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  I had hoped that an America that started moving from religion would become more educated, our children focusing on math and science. But it seems like kids don't know anything these days. My 15 year old didn't even know who Wyatt Earp was. She'd couldn't name any major battles of the revolutionary war or civil war.

Memorization of facts is not a measure of knowledge, if just a measurement of your memorization of bits of data. Remembering the name of Wyatt Earp gets you what? A name of a man long since dead. He is certainly one of the more well known names of the Wild West, but outside of the gunfight at the O.K. Corral, what is there to be gained from knowing just his name?

It's the difference between memorizing the date of the Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, and understanding the social and political climate that lead up to the Japaneses making that attack. One is the answer to a trivia question, the other can help with real-world understanding of our current political climate. It's the difference between simple memorization and actual understanding. One can offer valuable insight into our own lives, the other is an answer to a Jeopardy question.


(01-04-2015 07:51 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  School has become a place where kids hang out with there friends and build social networks. They don't really learn anything. We're falling behind other nations in our education rankings.

Where is the benefit?

Our failing education systems are not because of our 'moral decay'. It stemming from exemptions for religious home-schoolers, vouchers for private schools, a flawed and misguided emphasis on testing over understanding, a complete lack of critical thinking, constant cuts to education budgets, under-qualified or unqualified teachers and personnel, the attack upon teacher's unions and teacher's themselves, the privileged separating themselves from the public system, and the middle and lower class having less time to spend with their kids because more and more families needs two money earners to keep themselves afloat.


Maybe, just maybe, these other contributing factors have something to do with it. But no, I'm sure it's just our moral decay and declining church attendace. Probably gangster rap too. Dodgy

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04-04-2015, 06:18 AM
RE: Indiana



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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