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04-04-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 06:18 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  


Sin cake? Like this?

[Image: 888e6056a24b1a990dfcb94112ea6dbd.jpg]

Or am I doing it wrong? Consider

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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04-04-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Indiana
I love these "moral decay" arguments. Oohhh, the divorce rate is up! It's moral decay!!!!

He's another possible explanation as to why divorce rates are up: women are no longer treated as legal chattel and they now have some actual fucking rights. When we lived in this so-called moral "golden age", things were totally awesome - if you were a white, anglo-saxon protestant male. If you were anyone else, things pretty much sucked balls. But, let's just focus on women and divorce rates for a moment.

First, quick caveat - I'm not a sociologist, nor do I play one on TV. I have no actual proof for what I'm about to say, it's just a hunch. But, I do have some actual facts that I base my hunch upon. My first fact is that during this morality golden age when marriages lasted forever, women had very little legal rights. In most states a woman could not get a divorce without her husband agreeing to it. So, he could cheat on her, slap her around, or they could just grow apart but if he felt it was too inconvenient to have to pay alimony or cook for himself, he could say "you know what? Fuck that, she's not going anywhere" and go no where is what happened. She could pack up and run but she could not legally divorce him until and unless he said it was a-ok. That all started to change in the last 70s and 80s because of those damn feminists! And, another thing started to happen as well - women started to go to college in greater numbers and had the ability to support themselves (although they couldn't earn the same salary as a man - that's crazy talk).

Here's one pretty picture that shows the increase in women going to college starting in 1970 as compared to men:

[Image: ST_13.12.12_GenderWorkSlideshow_1a.png]

Ignore the numbers on men and just focus on the women. You'll notice a significant trend upwards.

Here is another pretty picture that shows women's growth in the work force:

[Image: chart3-1.gif]

So, while I have no proven evidence, my hunch is another way of looking at the so called "moral decay" that increased the divorce rate can also be described as the "fuck this asshole, I can take are of myself and he can't stop me" phenomena.

But, that's just a guess on my part.

I'm obviously over simplifying this. I think there are a whole lot of reasons that people get divorced more now, but I absolutely think the combination of progress in women's rights to divorce as well as opportunities to support themselves have lead to more women walking out of marriages they otherwise would have been trapped in a generation or two ago. And, if that is characterized as "moral decay" then so be it. I'll take moral decay and legal and societal equivalency over the white male WASP domination we had i this country for a ~150 years.

As for the question of unwed mothers, that's a tougher issue. Does a lack of religion play a part in why some people are having kids out of wedlock? Maybe. Probably. But, if the only way we can get people to keep it in their pants is belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, we are going to need to find a better long term solution to the problem, assuming it really is a problem (and I think it probably is). I still think the correlative data shows that education and relative wealth plays a significantly greater role in when you have kids and how many you have than religion does. If I have some time later, I'll google around as I bet this has been studied and we don't have to guess.

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04-04-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 11:12 AM)BnW Wrote:  I love these "moral decay" arguments. Oohhh, the divorce rate is up! It's moral decay!!!!

He's another possible explanation as to why divorce rates are up: women are no longer treated as legal chattel and they now have some actual fucking rights. When we lived in this so-called moral "golden age", things were totally awesome - if you were a white, anglo-saxon protestant male. If you were anyone else, things pretty much sucked balls. But, let's just focus on women and divorce rates for a moment.

First, quick caveat - I'm not a sociologist, nor do I play one on TV. I have no actual proof for what I'm about to say, it's just a hunch. But, I do have some actual facts that I base my hunch upon. My first fact is that during this morality golden age when marriages lasted forever, women had very little legal rights. In most states a woman could not get a divorce without her husband agreeing to it. So, he could cheat on her, slap her around, or they could just grow apart but if he felt it was too inconvenient to have to pay alimony or cook for himself, he could say "you know what? Fuck that, she's not going anywhere" and go no where is what happened. She could pack up and run but she could not legally divorce him until and unless he said it was a-ok. That all started to change in the last 70s and 80s because of those damn feminists! And, another thing started to happen as well - women started to go to college in greater numbers and had the ability to support themselves (although they couldn't earn the same salary as a man - that's crazy talk).

Here's one pretty picture that shows the increase in women going to college starting in 1970 as compared to men:

[Image: ST_13.12.12_GenderWorkSlideshow_1a.png]

Ignore the numbers on men and just focus on the women. You'll notice a significant trend upwards.

Here is another pretty picture that shows women's growth in the work force:

[Image: chart3-1.gif]

So, while I have no proven evidence, my hunch is another way of looking at the so called "moral decay" that increased the divorce rate can also be described as the "fuck this asshole, I can take are of myself and he can't stop me" phenomena.

But, that's just a guess on my part.

I'm obviously over simplifying this. I think there are a whole lot of reasons that people get divorced more now, but I absolutely think the combination of progress in women's rights to divorce as well as opportunities to support themselves have lead to more women walking out of marriages they otherwise would have been trapped in a generation or two ago. And, if that is characterized as "moral decay" then so be it. I'll take moral decay and legal and societal equivalency over the white male WASP domination we had i this country for a ~150 years.

As for the question of unwed mothers, that's a tougher issue. Does a lack of religion play a part in why some people are having kids out of wedlock? Maybe. Probably. But, if the only way we can get people to keep it in their pants is belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, we are going to need to find a better long term solution to the problem, assuming it really is a problem (and I think it probably is). I still think the correlative data shows that education and relative wealth plays a significantly greater role in when you have kids and how many you have than religion does. If I have some time later, I'll google around as I bet this has been studied and we don't have to guess.

I can agree with pretty much all of that. Your hypothesis is probably correct. I would still call it moral decay. I still think all of these divorces, single mother households, multiple marriages with kids from multiple fathers is fucking up America. Morally, I'm not against pre-marital sex or divorce, but I pay attention to shit. I can walk in wal-mart and I'm disgusted by what I see. Druggies. Dumb fucks. Gangsters. Thieves. This country is not what it used to be. It is moral decay. It's a lack of morals all around, even if it's unrelated to religion. Honestly, I blame liberalism, but I bet you knew that.

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04-04-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 11:12 AM)BnW Wrote:  I love these "moral decay" arguments. Oohhh, the divorce rate is up! It's moral decay!!!!

He's another possible explanation as to why divorce rates are up: women are no longer treated as legal chattel and they now have some actual fucking rights. When we lived in this so-called moral "golden age", things were totally awesome - if you were a white, anglo-saxon protestant male. If you were anyone else, things pretty much sucked balls. But, let's just focus on women and divorce rates for a moment.

First, quick caveat - I'm not a sociologist, nor do I play one on TV. I have no actual proof for what I'm about to say, it's just a hunch. But, I do have some actual facts that I base my hunch upon. My first fact is that during this morality golden age when marriages lasted forever, women had very little legal rights. In most states a woman could not get a divorce without her husband agreeing to it. So, he could cheat on her, slap her around, or they could just grow apart but if he felt it was too inconvenient to have to pay alimony or cook for himself, he could say "you know what? Fuck that, she's not going anywhere" and go no where is what happened. She could pack up and run but she could not legally divorce him until and unless he said it was a-ok. That all started to change in the last 70s and 80s because of those damn feminists! And, another thing started to happen as well - women started to go to college in greater numbers and had the ability to support themselves (although they couldn't earn the same salary as a man - that's crazy talk).

Here's one pretty picture that shows the increase in women going to college starting in 1970 as compared to men:

[Image: ST_13.12.12_GenderWorkSlideshow_1a.png]

Ignore the numbers on men and just focus on the women. You'll notice a significant trend upwards.

Here is another pretty picture that shows women's growth in the work force:

[Image: chart3-1.gif]

So, while I have no proven evidence, my hunch is another way of looking at the so called "moral decay" that increased the divorce rate can also be described as the "fuck this asshole, I can take are of myself and he can't stop me" phenomena.

But, that's just a guess on my part.

I'm obviously over simplifying this. I think there are a whole lot of reasons that people get divorced more now, but I absolutely think the combination of progress in women's rights to divorce as well as opportunities to support themselves have lead to more women walking out of marriages they otherwise would have been trapped in a generation or two ago. And, if that is characterized as "moral decay" then so be it. I'll take moral decay and legal and societal equivalency over the white male WASP domination we had i this country for a ~150 years.

As for the question of unwed mothers, that's a tougher issue. Does a lack of religion play a part in why some people are having kids out of wedlock? Maybe. Probably. But, if the only way we can get people to keep it in their pants is belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, we are going to need to find a better long term solution to the problem, assuming it really is a problem (and I think it probably is). I still think the correlative data shows that education and relative wealth plays a significantly greater role in when you have kids and how many you have than religion does. If I have some time later, I'll google around as I bet this has been studied and we don't have to guess.

Totally agree. Women stayed in horrible marriages for a multitude of societal reasons that no longer exist. And also a good point about out-of-wedlock kids. If belief in a sky daddy is all that is keeping them from banging like rabbits, that doesn't say much for sky daddy OR the people who use him as an excuse.
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04-04-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Indiana
And that is exactly why the religious right are fighting against abortion rights: it is the last lever they have in their fight to keep women barefoot and pregnant.
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04-04-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 11:57 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  And that is exactly why the religious right are fighting against abortion rights: it is the last lever they have in their fight to keep women barefoot and pregnant.

Or maybe they're disgusted by the thought of a human baby chopped into pieces and sucked out by a vacuum? Consider

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04-04-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 11:36 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 11:12 AM)BnW Wrote:  I love these "moral decay" arguments. Oohhh, the divorce rate is up! It's moral decay!!!!

He's another possible explanation as to why divorce rates are up: women are no longer treated as legal chattel and they now have some actual fucking rights. When we lived in this so-called moral "golden age", things were totally awesome - if you were a white, anglo-saxon protestant male. If you were anyone else, things pretty much sucked balls. But, let's just focus on women and divorce rates for a moment.

First, quick caveat - I'm not a sociologist, nor do I play one on TV. I have no actual proof for what I'm about to say, it's just a hunch. But, I do have some actual facts that I base my hunch upon. My first fact is that during this morality golden age when marriages lasted forever, women had very little legal rights. In most states a woman could not get a divorce without her husband agreeing to it. So, he could cheat on her, slap her around, or they could just grow apart but if he felt it was too inconvenient to have to pay alimony or cook for himself, he could say "you know what? Fuck that, she's not going anywhere" and go no where is what happened. She could pack up and run but she could not legally divorce him until and unless he said it was a-ok. That all started to change in the last 70s and 80s because of those damn feminists! And, another thing started to happen as well - women started to go to college in greater numbers and had the ability to support themselves (although they couldn't earn the same salary as a man - that's crazy talk).

Here's one pretty picture that shows the increase in women going to college starting in 1970 as compared to men:

[Image: ST_13.12.12_GenderWorkSlideshow_1a.png]

Ignore the numbers on men and just focus on the women. You'll notice a significant trend upwards.

Here is another pretty picture that shows women's growth in the work force:

[Image: chart3-1.gif]

So, while I have no proven evidence, my hunch is another way of looking at the so called "moral decay" that increased the divorce rate can also be described as the "fuck this asshole, I can take are of myself and he can't stop me" phenomena.

But, that's just a guess on my part.

I'm obviously over simplifying this. I think there are a whole lot of reasons that people get divorced more now, but I absolutely think the combination of progress in women's rights to divorce as well as opportunities to support themselves have lead to more women walking out of marriages they otherwise would have been trapped in a generation or two ago. And, if that is characterized as "moral decay" then so be it. I'll take moral decay and legal and societal equivalency over the white male WASP domination we had i this country for a ~150 years.

As for the question of unwed mothers, that's a tougher issue. Does a lack of religion play a part in why some people are having kids out of wedlock? Maybe. Probably. But, if the only way we can get people to keep it in their pants is belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, we are going to need to find a better long term solution to the problem, assuming it really is a problem (and I think it probably is). I still think the correlative data shows that education and relative wealth plays a significantly greater role in when you have kids and how many you have than religion does. If I have some time later, I'll google around as I bet this has been studied and we don't have to guess.

I can agree with pretty much all of that. Your hypothesis is probably correct. I would still call it moral decay. I still think all of these divorces, single mother households, multiple marriages with kids from multiple fathers is fucking up America. Morally, I'm not against pre-marital sex or divorce, but I pay attention to shit. I can walk in wal-mart and I'm disgusted by what I see. Druggies. Dumb fucks. Gangsters. Thieves. This country is not what it used to be. It is moral decay. It's a lack of morals all around, even if it's unrelated to religion. Honestly, I blame liberalism, but I bet you knew that.

High amounts of Druggies, Dumb Fucks, Thieves and Gangsters(of a different type) were all prevalent in this country in the 20th century and 19th century as well.

Every generation seems to come out with this tone of, oh the current generation is going to shit... yet their generation and previous ones to theirs were having the exact same type of people doing the exact same type of stuff. This type of thought goes often with those thinking that the world is ending in their lifetime due to the bible saying smut will be in the street and look at our media. Just look at it from centuries ago and decades ago, it was literally the same and it's visible in the media of those eras too. There was stories and plays of the 16th century full of filthy smut jokes and scandalous humor. This is part of why the puritans were so pissed off at their society seeing it "decaying." It's a trend that keep happening but doesn't reflect what life even was like in the past. I'm not sure what people want to think, the way the country used to be was... because any peachy image has never been the case.

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04-04-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 12:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 11:36 AM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  I can agree with pretty much all of that. Your hypothesis is probably correct. I would still call it moral decay. I still think all of these divorces, single mother households, multiple marriages with kids from multiple fathers is fucking up America. Morally, I'm not against pre-marital sex or divorce, but I pay attention to shit. I can walk in wal-mart and I'm disgusted by what I see. Druggies. Dumb fucks. Gangsters. Thieves. This country is not what it used to be. It is moral decay. It's a lack of morals all around, even if it's unrelated to religion. Honestly, I blame liberalism, but I bet you knew that.

High amounts of Druggies, Dumb Fucks, Thieves and Gangsters(of a different type) were all prevalent in this country in the 20th century and 19th century as well.

Every generation seems to come out with this tone of, oh the current generation is going to shit... yet their generation and previous ones to theirs were having the exact same type of people doing the exact same type of stuff. This type of thought goes often with those thinking that the world is ending in their lifetime due to the bible saying smut will be in the street and look at our media. Just look at it from centuries ago and decades ago, it was literally the same and it's visible in the media of those eras too. There was stories and plays of the 16th century full of filthy smut jokes and scandalous humor. This is part of why the puritans were so pissed off at their society seeing it "decaying." It's a trend that keep happening but doesn't reflect what life even was like in the past. I'm not sure what people want to think, the way the country used to be was... because any peachy image has never been the case.

I don't disagree that there has always been an element of fucked up individuals in this country, and human history. It just seems that now it's gone mainstream. Just look at the crime rates over the last hundred years. They have gotten worse over time. Well except they are actually falling recently, mostly due to the advances in law enforcement technology and crime prevention techniques.

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04-04-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Indiana
(04-04-2015 12:39 PM)Patriot10mm Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 12:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  High amounts of Druggies, Dumb Fucks, Thieves and Gangsters(of a different type) were all prevalent in this country in the 20th century and 19th century as well.

Every generation seems to come out with this tone of, oh the current generation is going to shit... yet their generation and previous ones to theirs were having the exact same type of people doing the exact same type of stuff. This type of thought goes often with those thinking that the world is ending in their lifetime due to the bible saying smut will be in the street and look at our media. Just look at it from centuries ago and decades ago, it was literally the same and it's visible in the media of those eras too. There was stories and plays of the 16th century full of filthy smut jokes and scandalous humor. This is part of why the puritans were so pissed off at their society seeing it "decaying." It's a trend that keep happening but doesn't reflect what life even was like in the past. I'm not sure what people want to think, the way the country used to be was... because any peachy image has never been the case.

I don't disagree that there has always been an element of fucked up individuals in this country, and human history. It just seems that now it's gone mainstream. Just look at the crime rates over the last hundred years. They have gotten worse over time. Well except they are actually falling recently, mostly due to the advances in law enforcement technology and crime prevention techniques.

The crime rate that has plummeted since the oh so scary liberal values have taken hold? This is the most peaceful time in human history where in most of the world (excepting africa and south america) you are now less likely to ever be the victim of a crime than at any time before. Conservatives have this rose colored view of a past that never was. Liberal values have made society a much better and more inclusive place and that kills them.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-04-2015, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2015 09:24 AM by Anjele.)
RE: Indiana
It surprises me that it's assumed there are more out of wedlock babies now - as in - there weren't any back in the day. Unwed mothers in years past were sent off to special homes till they gave birth and gave the baby away in a closed adoption. Or, they were otherwise hidden away and the babies were raised as a sibling or a cousin. Either way it created lies and secrets. Often done to prevent shame on the family...and that shame generally comes from religious beliefs.

Let's also not overlook the fact that, back in the day, women married a lot younger and with less education than they do now. My grandmother married at 15 to a man nine years her senior. My mother married at 16, to a service man. That was the best way to get off the island where the ability to make a good living was limited.

Divorce rates have risen since the the good old days. How was a woman going to take care of herself and her children when she most likely married young, had limited education, and few marketable skills. And again, religion comes into play by decreeing that divorce is not acceptable. Let no man put asunder and blah, blah, blah.

I don't go to Walmart because it's become a freak show. I have options. I don't have to go there - but I can if I change my mind.

The OP's remark about kids not learning math and science and then saying their kid doesn't even know about Wyatt Earp. Blink I am crap at math and haven't done a lot of post HS studying of science (officially) but I haven't come across any math or science that even mentions Wyatt Earp.

What part are parents playing with how their kids turn out? You say that the issue is moral decay and I say it's much more likely parents who aren't parenting. Are parents busy...hell yes. It's hard to make a decent living for most families, even those where both parents works but someone still needs to be minding the kids. I had multiple close calls with kids with those mini carts just yesterday as the mother just kept ignoring her kids running around like they were being raised by wolves. Then there was the kid who kept screeching at the top of his lungs that he had to use the bathroom. The dad just kept telling him that he didn't need to use the bathroom. Thank you to both - made my day off much more special - and no, I wasn't at Walmart.

My parents were rotten parents. Prone to physical violence and drinking too much. But all three of us kids know that there were some positive things too. We were read to and the house was full of books. My earliest memories are of sitting with dad watching any and all nature shows on TV. Wild Kingdom and Disney shows. We were expected to give school our all. We also learned a work ethic from dad. We learned not to be drunken bitches, hated by all, from our mother.

Remember, mom was 16 when they got married....a Catholic wedding didn't ensure a good family environment. She was 17 when I was born...she didn't even want kids. But with the whole 'no birth control' thing she later had two more. How did that blessing of their marriage make things better?

There are issues out there but few of them are new. This moral decay crap, is simply crap. Things weren't as out in the open perhaps. But that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

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