"Indoctrination"
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24-08-2012, 05:31 AM
"Indoctrination"
Inspired by something Smoosh said in the Paul Ryan discussion, I thought this deserved it's own thread:

(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  An Analogy, because i loves me some analogies. I find religion offensive and find it sad that so many children are brainwashed into it.
I know that outlawing religion or childhood indoctrination is not the right way to go about eliminating it, however.

My opinion is: the word indoctrination is problematic.
I'm all for "Atheistic indoctrination", if you will.
When you are teaching someone the truth, it's education, not indoctrination.
This is the reason we don't teach alchemy and chemistry, then let the kids decide which is valid.
Same with astrology and astronomy.

For example, you are required to learn Algebra by the 6th or 7th grade, correct?
You are expected not to question the laws of Algebra. It's more or less rote memorization.
Thus, as far as Algebra is concerned, a person can be said to be "indoctrinated".
Which I call "educated".

Which brings me to this parenthetical aside:

(There is a family story that we tell every Thanksgiving which is about my mother helping
my sister Angie with an Algebraic equation, namely finding the area of a circle. So after my mother goes over A = πr²
with her several times, Angie has this glorious inspiration: She puts down her pencil, looks up, and says
"What if the circle is bigger?" Big Grin Belly laughs for days over that one...)


(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  If we really want to abolish religion, we need to raise awareness, improve education, and raise the standard of living.

Perhaps, but that is what the religious right refers to as "indoctrination". They're wrong, of course, but that is what they think.

So what do you guys think? Smoosh?
"Indoctrination" seems to be tricky, depending upon how it's used.Consider

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24-08-2012, 05:34 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 05:31 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  Inspired by something Smoosh said in the Paul Ryan discussion, I thought this deserved it's own thread:

(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  An Analogy, because i loves me some analogies. I find religion offensive and find it sad that so many children are brainwashed into it.
I know that outlawing religion or childhood indoctrination is not the right way to go about eliminating it, however.

My opinion is: the word indoctrination is problematic.
I'm all for "Atheistic indoctrination", if you will.
When you are teaching someone the truth, it's education, not indoctrination.
This is the reason we don't teach alchemy and chemistry, then let the kids decide which is valid.
Same with astrology and astronomy.

For example, you are required to learn Algebra by the 6th or 7th grade, correct?
You are expected not to question the laws of Algebra. It's more or less rote memorization.
Thus, as far as Algebra is concerned, a person can be said to be "indoctrinated".
Which I call "educated".

Which brings me to this parenthetical aside:

(There is a family story that we tell every Thanksgiving which is about my mother helping
my sister Angie with an Algebraic equation, namely finding the area of a circle. So after my mother goes over A = πr²
with her several times, Angie has this glorious inspiration: She puts down her pencil, looks up, and says
"What if the circle is bigger?" Big Grin Belly laughs for days over that one...)


(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  If we really want to abolish religion, we need to raise awareness, improve education, and raise the standard of living.

Perhaps, but that is what the religious right refers to as "indoctrination". They're wrong, of course, but that is what they think.

So what do you guys think? Smoosh?
"Indoctrination" seems to be tricky, depending upon how it's used.Consider

Well, yeah.
Education is what we do, indoctrination is what they do.Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2012, 05:38 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 05:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  Well, yeah.
Education is what we do, indoctrination is what they do.Drinking Beverage

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24-08-2012, 06:44 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 05:31 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  Inspired by something Smoosh said in the Paul Ryan discussion, I thought this deserved it's own thread:

(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  An Analogy, because i loves me some analogies. I find religion offensive and find it sad that so many children are brainwashed into it.
I know that outlawing religion or childhood indoctrination is not the right way to go about eliminating it, however.

My opinion is: the word indoctrination is problematic.
I'm all for "Atheistic indoctrination", if you will.
When you are teaching someone the truth, it's education, not indoctrination.
This is the reason we don't teach alchemy and chemistry, then let the kids decide which is valid.
Same with astrology and astronomy.

For example, you are required to learn Algebra by the 6th or 7th grade, correct?
You are expected not to question the laws of Algebra. It's more or less rote memorization.
Thus, as far as Algebra is concerned, a person can be said to be "indoctrinated".
Which I call "educated".

Which brings me to this parenthetical aside:

(There is a family story that we tell every Thanksgiving which is about my mother helping
my sister Angie with an Algebraic equation, namely finding the area of a circle. So after my mother goes over A = πr²
with her several times, Angie has this glorious inspiration: She puts down her pencil, looks up, and says
"What if the circle is bigger?" Big Grin Belly laughs for days over that one...)


(24-08-2012 04:14 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  If we really want to abolish religion, we need to raise awareness, improve education, and raise the standard of living.

Perhaps, but that is what the religious right refers to as "indoctrination". They're wrong, of course, but that is what they think.

So what do you guys think? Smoosh?
"Indoctrination" seems to be tricky, depending upon how it's used.Consider

In my family, the story went that the student asked "What if the pie are round?"

Guess you had to be there.

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24-08-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
Hey, Quidsane.

The indoctrination thing has always bothered me. It's being used both improperly and pejoratively. It's just fear mongering.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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24-08-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 07:03 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Quidsane.

The indoctrination thing has always bothered me. It's being used both improperly and pejoratively. It's just fear mongering.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Hey Ghost,
Do you mean religious indoctrination has bothered you, or that the non-believer's criticism of indoctrination bothers you?

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24-08-2012, 10:30 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
Hey, Erxomai.

The latter... kind of... it's the use of the term indoctrination, where I believe it does not apply, that bothers me... it being used improperly and pejoratively. It is used in the employ of fear mongering.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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24-08-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 10:30 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Erxomai.

The latter... kind of... it's the use of the term indoctrination, where I believe it does not apply, that bothers me... it being used improperly and pejoratively. It is used in the employ of fear mongering.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Very well. Carry on.Drinking Beverage

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24-08-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
(24-08-2012 10:30 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Erxomai.

The latter... kind of... it's the use of the term indoctrination, where I believe it does not apply, that bothers me... it being used improperly and pejoratively. It is used in the employ of fear mongering.

Matt,

By definition, most Christians / religious adherents ARE indoctrinated from birth. It's not done with malicious intent, except when it is (you know, like Carrie) - it's just how we were raised...I never had a choice growing up - never really thought that NOT believing was an option -- sure, you could shop among the various brands of Christianity, or try a foreign religion if you felt like, but to not believe?

I think most of us here, especially those that grew up religious, owe themselves a pat on the back (just a small quiet one) for breaking free and deprogramming from the "indoctrination." Organized religion is essentially a cult-like experience, just better branded and supported...

What might irk you is the arrogance (or something along those lines) that is associated with breaking free of those bonds. In an atheist forum, this should be a safe place to be a little smug (but not too much Wink...)

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24-08-2012, 11:19 AM
RE: "Indoctrination"
Hey, Seasbury.

Quote:What might irk you is the arrogance (or something along those lines) that is associated with breaking free of those bonds.

What in the sam hill would give you that idea? Not only is that inaccurate, but it has sum zero to do with what I'm saying. Truly bizarre.

And by definition, every single child on the planet is indoctrinated. It's called being raised. What is implied in this particular use of the term is that the religious are somehow doing something that other parents are not. Which is preposterous. That's the issue that I have. That the word is being given connotative meaning that implies that one group is doing something special when everyone is doing it, as well as being imbued with the implication that what they are doing is somehow sinister <twists moustache and adjusts monocle>.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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