Indoctrination, and Salvation thru Belief
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19-10-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Indoctrination, and Salvation thru Belief
(19-10-2012 04:40 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 04:32 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  How to make a difference between a true believer and some child that only copy's there parents belief-patterns?
I think not, they would call it indoctrination, they would call it education and guidance.

What happened, if a child never came in contact with religion?
Will this child suddenly beginn to ask questions about a god-concept?

Is this child also indoctrinated, now from the atheism-site of the spectrum, or is the not-knowing about a god the default position?

I am curious, is there a study or such, to this subject?

I ran into an atheist at a meet up who never had the subject brought up until he asked about it. So they told him about it and read the bible. His reaction was basically, who would believe this?

Add me to this list. Obviously, I had heard about religions. I even had a book when I was about 12 or so called "All the World's Religions" which was a non-denominational comparison of the big religions in the world. But I was never indoctrinated. Two atheist parents. So while I didn't grow up in a vacuum of never knowing religion existed, I was clearly outside of any indoctrination.

I moved to Utah when I was 13. For those too far removed who may not know, it's Mormon central. The seat of their religion, their "Vatican" though they don't call it that, is here, along with their "Pope" (the Mormon Prophet who is their physical and spiritual leader) is here. Yeah, I'm up to my neck in Mormons. I still remained aloof on the subject.

About the time I turned 18, someone convinced me to read the bible. I wasn't convinced because I was a "seeker" looking for salvation or meaning or something, but rather just to find out what all the fuss was about.

I immediately found it ridiculous. Literally. Before I read it, I didn't ridicule it. After reading it, I did. It is quite worthy of ridicule for all the reasons that you already know.

So, before my encounter with the bible, I thought "Huh, well, lots of religious people, probably worshiping made up junk". After reading it, I thought "This is crap, these people are stupid, only an idiot could read this and think there's any possibility of it being remotely relevant to the real world". (I didn't really understand indoctrination then, so I blamed them all for being idiots - I'm a bit more forgiving today).

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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19-10-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: Indoctrination, and Salvation thru Belief
(19-10-2012 09:58 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Yeah, I'm up to my neck in Mormons.

Hahahahahahah, you sounds like someone in some of the old actionmovies from the eighties: Yeah, I'm up to my neck in Mormons (crap, shit, trouble, choose one).

You have made the classic way to atheism, if i understand you right.
Read the bible and dismiss it.
The one who convinced you to read it in the first place, what does he saying about your conclusions?

I am all in to forgiving them there stupidity, but how we can stop the next generation from being as stupid as there parents?
Or is this never ends?

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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19-10-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: Indoctrination, and Salvation thru Belief
(19-10-2012 10:51 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 09:58 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Yeah, I'm up to my neck in Mormons.

Hahahahahahah, you sounds like someone in some of the old actionmovies from the eighties: Yeah, I'm up to my neck in Mormons (crap, shit, trouble, choose one).

You have made the classic way to atheism, if i understand you right.
Read the bible and dismiss it.
The one who convinced you to read it in the first place, what does he saying about your conclusions?

I am all in to forgiving them there stupidity, but how we can stop the next generation from being as stupid as there parents?
Or is this never ends?

Not really all that classic. I was born an atheist, I have lived my whole life as an atheist - never even one day was I religious.

The one who convinced me to read the bible was an atheist high school friend who had started reading it for the same reason he recommended it to me - a good laugh at how stupid it was.

At the same time, another friend got me reading the 10-book series Invasion Earth by L. Ron Hubbard - pure science fiction, unlike that Scientology stuff he wrote. But it is the worst sci-fi I have ever read. I think he wanted to aim for over-the-top goofy silliness, kind of like Douglas Adams' stuff (Hitchhiker's Guide, etc.) but wasn't a good enough writer so it was just over-the-top crappy sci-fi.

But I found that crappy worthless series (which I quit after two books, it was really that bad) to be more plausible than the Bible.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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19-10-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Indoctrination, and Salvation thru Belief
(19-10-2012 08:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  What we have is a natural curiosity; a knowledge hole.

This. Someone linked a vid of neil deGrasse Tyson on FB, I didn't watch it, but the description said something about how he uses the same words and has the same feelings for science that religious people have about religion. So I would say maybe that people want to satisfy their curiosity with some kind of explanation; that gives them good feelings. It's just that religious people plug in "because God" as the answer to many questions and those who prefer scientific explanations use the scientific method to try to understand the world.

It's like a cousin of mine. She was talking about DNA and said it's obvious proof that God created life. On the other hand, there is nothing about DNA that I would attribute to the supernatural. It's a different way of looking at the world, and I think most people are naturally credulous.
Quote:I am all in to forgiving them there stupidity, but how we can stop the next generation from being as stupid as there parents?
Or is this never ends?
Education. I don't think it will be a fast or simple process, though, I think it will take a lot of time and only few people will be able to question their parents' religion in each generation. Others will be too deeply indoctrinated. I think access to other points of view and access to information (such as on the internet) is a step in the right direction, though, and will help children to understand that their are many ways of viewing the world and they should carefully consider whether or not they think religion is the best one.
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