Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
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25-07-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(25-07-2017 06:51 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Is it a crime?

Should it be a crime? If yes, how do you enforce it?


It seems to me, that short of jury rigging the voting results - pretty much anything goes.

That is, if a foreign national wants to try to influence the voting of US citizens, they should be able to do it.

Otherwise, you're restricting US citizens in their right to vote as they like.

If they want to sell their vote to the highest bidder, why not???

I'm betting a financial incentive would make for higher voter turnout...

Big Grin

You'd have to make US laws that limit what foreigners can think and say about the election. It doesn't seem constitutional.

Hacking private servers however seems like a crime(for foreigners and non-foreigners alike). When it's done in collusion with foreigners, it's treason-like.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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25-07-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(25-07-2017 06:51 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If they want to sell their vote to the highest bidder, why not???

Because some people fought a war with a world dominating power across the ocean about the right to have that vote at all? Because they endured with George Washinton a horrible cold winter in Valley Forge to make it true? Because they died for believing this idea to be worth dying for?

But, yeah go ahead, sell out those your right to vote, why not? Facepalm

Pretty stupid of them to die for the right to sell yourself out for a few bucks 250y later, isnt it? What idiots to get killed over such an idiotic idea? Why didnt they just pay their tax to George? Would have saved a lot of lives, and they could have used their valuable time to make more money instead of fighting Georges troops over such a silly topic. Money is not the most importnat thing in life, its the only one, isnt it? Consider

While we are at it? Why not sell out your free speech? Let someone pay for you shutting up, or at least for making you say what he wants...ohh, sorry, your current administration is already sold on that deal, and it works so smooth.

Meanwhile, somewhere in Europe: Popcorn

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26-07-2017, 01:30 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
Easy answer... the US government needs to make voting compulsory.

91% voter turnout for Australian federal election in 2016 versus a US presidential election turnout of just 55% indicates that the average US citizen just doesn't care who their president is, or are simply too fucking lazy to get out of bed.

And another confounding factor is the outmoded Electoral College system. It has to go ASAP as it got Trump the presidency by default, but with no subsequent mandate by the people.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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26-07-2017, 04:01 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
Selling your vote can hardly be called a crime, but *buying* votes I'd say is definitely one.

If you allow that, essentially what you're saying is that for a free handout every few years the rich can do whatever they like. As it stands they already do what they like, hence you guys have the mess that you do.

Politics is about interest groups pushing what they want, and those who have the most resources tend to win. The entire reason you guys have a republic though, is because the little guy occasionally gets tired of being crushed. Otherwise you'd have a king.

Your problem at the moment is that the system is way too easy to cheat.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-07-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(26-07-2017 04:01 AM)morondog Wrote:  The entire reason you guys have a republic though, is because the little guy occasionally gets tired of being crushed. Otherwise you'd have a king.

This

is the point of my rant earlier. People fought a war to be able to 1) vote, and vote 2) freely (= to their own conscience)

Once you have enough people who think that even discussing the topic of selling out your vote (or not), then you as a society already are fucked in a sense that these people dont seem to be able to even acknowledge why they do have their vote and how it came about.

Reminds me of the roman empire (too bad Banjo isnt here to weigh in). First they killed their last king to have a republic, then proudly paraded it around the mediterranean. At the "end" (which lasted quite long, at least starting with the Gracchi or Marius/Sulla) it became a perversion, with factual military dictators (Sulla), populists (Marius, Caesar, Gracchi, thats where the name came from "populares") everybody selling out their goals and ideals for power and money, finally everybody was so pissed about the republic, noone objected any more to having an imperator/god Augustus.

Once enough people start thinking about selling out rights that had to be paid for with blood earlier, your society is up for existential crisis.
Once those rights are started to being sold, the geenie is out of the bottle, and your republic is done for, sooner or later.

I really hope, Onlinebiker is a minority in even considering this. I hope we dont see the start of the decline of the rom.. US republic. Not because i care too much about Rome, but because Germania was in the blast radius of an imploding ame.. roman empire.

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26-07-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(25-07-2017 09:50 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  ...
Then why not just let everyone in the world vote in American elections? They have big stakes in the outcomes too.
...

I'm reminded of one of those surveys where you fill in pages of questions and add lots of nuanced comments in the "other option" section, only to have the whole thing rejected because you aren't from the US... a question was "Is it acceptable to fly drones over another nation's air space" (with a sideways reference to Pakistan).

My answer was, "yes, as long as Pakistan can fly drones over US air space".

So I would go one step further... Only people from other countries can vote in a national election - and this goes for every other nation too.

Local authority elections, however, would remain a local affair.

Wink

As a footnote, I can't help thinking that Nikolai Ryzhkov, Evo Morales and if they were still alve, Salvador Allende, Mohammad Mosaddegh, Palmiro Togliatti would be chuckling over what's going on right now.

Super powers will be super powers.

Rolleyes

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26-07-2017, 05:24 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
To be fair though, Roman Empire under Augustus did achieve significant things in terms of raising standards of living, technology etc. Pax Romana was a wonderful thing. I don't doubt that under an able and enlightened ruler, kingship is actually no bad thing. But it's too easy for an able ruler to turn into an autocratic ruler, to forget that they rule as a servant of the people and to believe that they hold the Divine Right to rule. Better to have checks and balances, to have separation of powers, and to have a people's assembly to safeguard the people from incompetent or evil rulers.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-07-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
I'll take Pax Romana for $200, Alex.

(26-07-2017 05:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... Roman Empire under Augustus did achieve significant things in terms of raising standards of living, technology etc.
...

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Angel




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26-07-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(26-07-2017 05:13 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ... Only people from other countries can vote in a national election - and this goes for every other nation too ...

What deep irony that this is today considered threatening when in practice it'd be the most rational of all the applied democracies. We have a long way to go before humanity crosses the threshold where its stupidity is finally outweighed by its intellect.
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26-07-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: Influencing or Interfering with US Elections
(26-07-2017 08:57 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(26-07-2017 05:13 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ... Only people from other countries can vote in a national election - and this goes for every other nation too ...

What deep irony that this is today considered threatening when in practice it'd be the most rational of all the applied democracies. We have a long way to go before humanity crosses the threshold where its stupidity is finally outweighed by its intellect.

I dunno that it's workable. The incentive would be to vote for the person who would care about *your* interests, say if I am voting in the election of the US president, I'll just vote for whoever says they'll do the most for Africa. And likewise from the other side. So we'll still get fucked up politicians, but this time it won't even be our fault. No thanks.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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