Ingenious Fools
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13-09-2011, 12:29 PM
Ingenious Fools
Found this quote today: "It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious." I immediately thought of evolution and a quote by Einstein "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" and the quote in my signature. (I also put this in Philosophy because I did not know where else to put it.) This quote got me thinking about how people always try to find some logic loophole to get around or out of an argument or a logical conundrum. And instead they often end up with a series of illogical ideas and/or fallacies that they have convinced themselves are true and logical.

That may be a difficult paragraph to read so, in short, how does one go about making an argument simple and foolproof when ingenious fools find ways to wriggle out from underneath its logic?

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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13-09-2011, 12:36 PM
RE: Ingenious Fools
You can't. People will believe whatever fits into their own personal comfort zone. If it doesn't fit then they won't understand or believe it. Their own personal comfort zone is created by personal experience and current intelligence level. If it makes them uncomfortable to learn more or ask questions then they will forever think the way that they already do. How do you open a door that has someone pushing against it the whole time? In theory you push harder, but it doesn't work when they have unlimited strength.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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13-09-2011, 12:47 PM
 
RE: Ingenious Fools
(13-09-2011 12:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  how does one go about making an argument simple and foolproof when ingenious fools find ways to wriggle out from underneath its logic?

I can't, at the moment, remember an example (I know I have one) but try this: construct your logic in such a way that they hate both conclusions.

In this case they will not try to wiggle out of the logic but tiptoe away and pretend that they never heard it.
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13-09-2011, 01:03 PM
RE: Ingenious Fools
I don't think there is single way, because fools are not all one type.
I think you have to be observant and flexible.

Notice when their eyes glaze over or jaws fall slack: TMI warning. Notice when you ignite even the tiniest spark and be prepared to nurture that, ever so patiently. Notice when you've stepped on a corn - and get off. Look through the brambles for the unbarred path.

As for application, the stratagem i find most useful in live conversation is questions, administered one at a time, with as many follow-ups as the traffic will bear - that is, as long as new answers keep coming. The main question has to be one in which your interlocutor is interested.
In writing, my first rule is brevity. Most people have short attention spans, are not proficient readers and easily confused by detail - can't relate the content of paragraph 3 to the gist of paragraph 1.
In both cases, it's vital to keep the vocabulary IQ-appropriate.

I'll come back if i think of more.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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13-09-2011, 03:39 PM
RE: Ingenious Fools
(13-09-2011 12:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That may be a difficult paragraph to read so, in short, how does one go about making an argument simple and foolproof when ingenious fools find ways to wriggle out from underneath its logic?

Its "ingenious fools" who make me question my own logic who I welcome the most...........if I can learn something from a "fool" or have my beliefs questioned........then what does that make me???

A "fool of fools"???

To classify somebody as a "fool" is to basicly see yourself as more informed.......but how can you be more informed when.....

1: Your views can change at anytime.
2: You learn something new everyday.
3: You dont know everything (you might think you do)

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

Jesus Jones
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14-09-2011, 08:17 AM
RE: Ingenious Fools
I would define a fool as someone who is naive enough to believe they do have all the answers or have access to all of the answers. I do not believe I have all of the answers and I am well aware that my views and opinions on particular matters may very well be wrong. I do not believe them because I think they are wrong, though. "The fool has said in his heart there is no god" I believe this statement should be changed to "the fool has said in his brain 'I know all' "

I have always found that people simply shut down if we engage in conversation, or the smoke spewing forth from their brains clouds their thought process. The basic info needed to be skeptical of religion is available at every turn, but so is illogical reasoning for believing. I am beginning to think that the only way is protect the secularization of schools and let them learn critical thinking skills from an early age. Conversations with fools are starting to make my ears smoke!

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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14-09-2011, 08:26 AM
RE: Ingenious Fools
With respect.......how do you go from this......

(13-09-2011 12:29 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  how does one go about making an argument simple and foolproof when ingenious fools find ways to wriggle out from underneath its logic?

To this.........

(14-09-2011 08:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I do not believe I have all of the answers and I am well aware that my views and opinions on particular matters may very well be wrong.

......Maybe you have answered your own question???

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

Jesus Jones
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14-09-2011, 09:32 AM
RE: Ingenious Fools
Perhaps I should have prefaced the original statement/question with an example, such as evolution. What we know about it is not necessarily entirely correct, but that is the beauty of science. Self-correction.

A simple foolproof explanation does not (and is often not) entirely correct. Perhaps a better question is how do you explain to people that what we think we know is certainly incomplete?

Is this place still a shithole run by a dumbass calvinist?
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14-09-2011, 11:07 AM
RE: Ingenious Fools
To some kinds of people - like the fools who are certain of their hand-me-dowm certitudes - any admission of uncertainty on our side is fatal. They go "GOTCHA!" and march away, triumphant. You need to refer to a few simple, well-defined examples that they can't refute (and their puppet-masters have not yet made up a pat reply).

Dog breeding is my preferred example.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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