Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
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28-03-2013, 06:22 AM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
(28-03-2013 12:16 AM)Doctor X Wrote:  [Image: a7e30760.gif]

--J.D.

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...girl has devoured my soul. Heart

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28-03-2013, 06:46 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 12:31 AM by Doctor X.)
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
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28-03-2013, 06:48 AM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
(28-03-2013 06:46 AM)Doctor X Wrote:  [Image: faint_zps13fc871a.gif]

--J.D.

Gwynnies in butterscotch to go with your chocolate covered Mila... Drooling

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28-03-2013, 07:14 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 12:31 AM by Doctor X.)
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
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28-03-2013, 07:20 AM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
I think three facts are pertinent:

1. An older virgin should be no more or less concerned/anxious with performance than a younger virgin, the more so if they are wedding another virgin. I don't want to argue statistics with you but two virgins (chaste in ways besides intercourse) have nothing to compare with and are extremely unlikely to divorce.

2. Most STD's could be ended permanently if several generations would follow the Bible pattern for chastity before marriage, fidelity after.

3. God made sex, arranged the first wedding, and the next verse is "They were naked and unashamed." - they made love and God never said, "That's not what I wanted for you!" God made sex, not the devil, and trust is the sexiest thing there is. As long as behavior is not causing suffering to the partner, it is permissible and guilt free for Christians to engage in all types of sexual activity with great pleasure. The Song of Songs alludes to frottage, foreplay, oral sex and intercourse.
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28-03-2013, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2013 07:47 AM by devilsadvoc8.)
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
(28-03-2013 07:20 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I think three facts are pertinent:

1. An older virgin should be no more or less concerned/anxious with performance than a younger virgin, the more so if they are wedding another virgin. I don't want to argue statistics with you but two virgins (chaste in ways besides intercourse) have nothing to compare with and are extremely unlikely to divorce.

2. Most STD's could be ended permanently if several generations would follow the Bible pattern for chastity before marriage, fidelity after.

3. God made sex, arranged the first wedding, and the next verse is "They were naked and unashamed." - they made love and God never said, "That's not what I wanted for you!" God made sex, not the devil, and trust is the sexiest thing there is. As long as behavior is not causing suffering to the partner, it is permissible and guilt free for Christians to engage in all types of sexual activity with great pleasure. The Song of Songs alludes to frottage, foreplay, oral sex and intercourse.

1- virgins are extremely unlikely to divorce? May be true may not be. Are you just pulling this out of your ass?

2- Ah, what about the bible pattern of multiple wives? Are you conveniently ignoring that completely? A lot of human suffering could be ended if the religious stopped breathing that doesn't make it a viable solution although is some very specific instances it has some attraction. Within your monogamy plea, wouldn't that apply to gay/lesbian unions as well?

3- Where does it say that Adam/Eve "made love"? Are you referring to one flesh? Based on your comments in 2 & 3 it looks like you would support gay marriage. If sex is guilt free and doesn't harm the partner then non-monogamous relationships would be ok then, right? Gay relationships should be ok then too.

Despite being a creationist fundie, your statements above seem quite progressive in supporting gay marriage and open relationships. I applaud you for that. it shows you are opening your mind to other concepts other than the narrow dogma of the church.
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28-03-2013, 08:01 AM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
Fucking PJ and his ridiculous, antique, non-adaptive morality. Dodgy

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28-03-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
(28-03-2013 07:20 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I think three facts are pertinent:

1. An older virgin should be no more or less concerned/anxious with performance than a younger virgin, the more so if they are wedding another virgin. I don't want to argue statistics with you but two virgins (chaste in ways besides intercourse) have nothing to compare with and are extremely unlikely to divorce.

2. Most STD's could be ended permanently if several generations would follow the Bible pattern for chastity before marriage, fidelity after.

3. God made sex, arranged the first wedding, and the next verse is "They were naked and unashamed." - they made love and God never said, "That's not what I wanted for you!" God made sex, not the devil, and trust is the sexiest thing there is. As long as behavior is not causing suffering to the partner, it is permissible and guilt free for Christians to engage in all types of sexual activity with great pleasure. The Song of Songs alludes to frottage, foreplay, oral sex and intercourse.

1. Mostly agreed on the performance issue, disagreed on the rest, and I guess the rest was your point. This doesn't account for things like, say, arguing over money (which is the leading cause for divorce in the US, not infidelity), nor does it address the curiosity issue (I wonder what THAT woman would be like), nor things like a woman marries a guy and then discovers that he wants her to be just a kitchen slave and baby factory. (Yes, this happens, to my cousin in fact.) You don't touch on all the people who'd get married just to knock boots (which is a TERRIBLE reason), when they're totally unsuited to each other in every other way. And I won't even touch on opportunities to discover that one is gay before marrying, and the effects that discovery can have on an existing marriage. (Nor will I touch on possibly-inborn sexual predilections that cannot be satisfied in a closed, monogamous marriage.) I won't say people SHOULD have sex before marrying (or without marrying), that's up to them, but there are disadvantages to go with your listed advantages and it isn't anywhere near as clear-cut as you are witnessing.

2. True, for a suitably high number of generations. And theft could be ended if people didn't steal, the murder rate would plummet if people didn't kill, and drunk driving would be eliminated if people didn't drink. But be realistic: none of these has been achieved in history (save for 0 drunk driving before motor vehicles), and none of them are going to happen now. The most you can do is force them into the shadows, and history teaches us that in the shadows is exactly where STDs are the most prolific and the most damaging.

3. I'm sure someone else will throw out the "so what if it's in a book" thing. For myself, I'll suggest you compare notes with some of your fellow Christians, especially the socially conservative fundamentalists trying to rule our private lives. Most of them don't seem to be on the same page as you. Come back when you believers can actually agree on what it is you believe in.

4. And the part you left out, the humungous elephant in the room that you don't acknowledge. While sex does come with risks (unwanted pregnancies, STD transmission, broken hearts), these can be reduced to extremely low levels with modern contraception, protection, and open communication. Add to this that sex is a fun, rich, fulfilling experience, and you haven't really made much of a case for the conventional notion of Biblical marriage. Maybe there's a case to be made for it, but you haven't made it.

FINALLY coming back to the OP, what does Christianity have to do with it? I viewed the character in question as having "ew icky slimy dirty need to clean OMG SANITIZER BURNS DOWN THERE!" OCD issues with sex, rather than Puritanical views.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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28-03-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
Quote:1- virgins are extremely unlikely to divorce? May be true may not be. Are you just pulling this out of your ass?

2- Ah, what about the bible pattern of multiple wives? Are you conveniently ignoring that completely? A lot of human suffering could be ended if the religious stopped breathing that doesn't make it a viable solution although is some very specific instances it has some attraction. Within your monogamy plea, wouldn't that apply to gay/lesbian unions as well?

3- Where does it say that Adam/Eve "made love"? Are you referring to one flesh? Based on your comments in 2 & 3 it looks like you would support gay marriage. If sex is guilt free and doesn't harm the partner then non-monogamous relationships would be ok then, right? Gay relationships should be ok then too.

Despite being a creationist fundie, your statements above seem quite progressive in supporting gay marriage and open relationships. I applaud you for that. it shows you are opening your mind to other concepts other than the narrow dogma of the church.
I do know that one of the resources from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth from 1979-2000. They studied more than 7000 men and women at age 18 then again at 38. Individuals who were abstinent from sex before marriage had half the divorce rates, and those who were not only abstinent but were actually virgins before marriage had a divorce rate of three times lower than that.

Very interesting comments on sexual imprinting also at: http://www.halleethehomemaker.com/2010/0...nt-page-1/

2. I wouldn't ignore it. I would give it context since the kings were warned in Torah not to multiply wives, and church elders and deacons (men of character are to have only one wife). Since Jewish polygamy was passe and condemned over 3,000 years ago, I don't sweat it now.

3. Jesus when teaching on marriage reiterated Gen 2:24 and spoke of Adam with Eve. I would also argue that gay relationships do bring suffering to the couple, but that's an aside. And no, I'm not thinking of Hell and God's judgment but earthly loss.

Thanks.
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28-03-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Insanely Rigid Christian Sex Ethics
Quote:1. Mostly agreed on the performance issue, disagreed on the rest, and I guess the rest was your point. This doesn't account for things like, say, arguing over money (which is the leading cause for divorce in the US, not infidelity), nor does it address the curiosity issue (I wonder what THAT woman would be like), nor things like a woman marries a guy and then discovers that he wants her to be just a kitchen slave and baby factory. (Yes, this happens, to my cousin in fact.) You don't touch on all the people who'd get married just to knock boots (which is a TERRIBLE reason), when they're totally unsuited to each other in every other way. And I won't even touch on opportunities to discover that one is gay before marrying, and the effects that discovery can have on an existing marriage. (Nor will I touch on possibly-inborn sexual predilections that cannot be satisfied in a closed, monogamous marriage.) I won't say people SHOULD have sex before marrying (or without marrying), that's up to them, but there are disadvantages to go with your listed advantages and it isn't anywhere near as clear-cut as you are witnessing.

2. True, for a suitably high number of generations. And theft could be ended if people didn't steal, the murder rate would plummet if people didn't kill, and drunk driving would be eliminated if people didn't drink. But be realistic: none of these has been achieved in history (save for 0 drunk driving before motor vehicles), and none of them are going to happen now. The most you can do is force them into the shadows, and history teaches us that in the shadows is exactly where STDs are the most prolific and the most damaging.

3. I'm sure someone else will throw out the "so what if it's in a book" thing. For myself, I'll suggest you compare notes with some of your fellow Christians, especially the socially conservative fundamentalists trying to rule our private lives. Most of them don't seem to be on the same page as you. Come back when you believers can actually agree on what it is you believe in.

4. And the part you left out, the humungous elephant in the room that you don't acknowledge. While sex does come with risks (unwanted pregnancies, STD transmission, broken hearts), these can be reduced to extremely low levels with modern contraception, protection, and open communication. Add to this that sex is a fun, rich, fulfilling experience, and you haven't really made much of a case for the conventional notion of Biblical marriage. Maybe there's a case to be made for it, but you haven't made it.

FINALLY coming back to the OP, what does Christianity have to do with it? I viewed the character in question as having "ew icky slimy dirty need to clean OMG SANITIZER BURNS DOWN THERE!" OCD issues with sex, rather than Puritanical views.
I did touch on the curiosity issue. Please know also that I've been in a healthy church for many, many years and seen abstinent couples go on through 20 years and more of wedded bliss with a fraction of the curious mindset that accompanies those who have been touched by early lack of chastity and/or exposure to pornography. I personally have no problem with being with someone who has been with other lovers, but most men despite any profligacy want to marry virgins. Think about that carefully for a bit. I'm sorry you feel that way. It is that clear cut. It is. A wife doesn't have to ask her virgin husband on their wedding night "Was I as good as Sherry? Mary? Laquishia? Bob? Julio?"

2. "And theft could be ended if people didn't steal, the murder rate would plummet if people didn't kill, and drunk driving would be eliminated if people didn't drink. But be realistic: none of these has been achieved in history (save for 0 drunk driving before motor vehicles), and none of them are going to happen now."

Sadly, you are 100% right. What would need to happen for all the above to occur? One possibility, everyone is a very moral freethinker. Another: Everyone is a sincere and devout born again Christian. My circle is chaste, doesn't drink and drive or steal, etc. Waiting for the full Kingdom! However, this not all happening yet is still not a moral or logical license to sleep around with the STD pool of over 50% of Americans having one, if you include minor Herpes and etc.

3. Most born agains I now are social conservatives who 100% agree on abstinence and etc. but it still takes devout young people to (not) do it.

4. It's not a low risk world, not with so many having STDs. People killing women with HPV while being symptom-free. No, its Russian Roulette out there and no condom can protect someone from a broken heart. I wasn't always a Christian. I have some sincere regrets and if you've been sexually active outside marriage, you do also on a 1-to-1 ratio. You face death, I do too, and if you've been out there on the loose, you face regret.

5. As for a Christian mindset being Puritan in nature, I don't know why so many people view Christians as all being addicted to feelings of guilt (perhaps Catholic notions of purity)? No, laser-hot sex is had with someone based on independence, not being baby factory, trust, and real freedom. If I score a hot babe tonight, what will I be concerned with? Performance, likely, or some kind of strange keeping score. If I score with my hot wife tonight--different story. No rush, no fuss. Sex if we want and making love or whatever we want or need. Did you know Paul compares the joy of wedded intercourse to knowing God? God invented the orgasms. A great argument for Theism, if you ask me. Thumbsup

Thanks for your sincere, well-reasoned and well-thought out comments. Please take my responses in the kind spirit in which they are intended.
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