Intelligent Design
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22-02-2016, 03:41 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:37 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 03:26 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  No I know what I'm thinking, thank'e.
Ok, I guess it was just you making a bad point.
Quote:What I'd like is for yourself to offer an answer to those questions that people have posed to yourself.

How might we tell if something in nature is designed?

Just saying " 'X' is really complicated therefore it's designed." isn't quite enough.

Since, we can agree, that sedimentary rocks are complicated. Stellar phenomena are complicated.

What possible test might there be, what kind of thought experiment might people do, to possibly get an inkling that something within the reality of nature is designed?
Typically we know things are designed because we've seen them (or similar things) be designed, but that doesn't work well for the origin of life, which we can't observe directly. Although, there are scientists trying to design living things and they're already able to create some rather intricate things using protean folding.


So, you've got nothing.

Next.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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Banjo.
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22-02-2016, 03:42 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:37 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Typically we know things are designed because we've seen them (or similar things) be designed, but that doesn't work well for the origin of life, which we can't observe directly. Although, there are scientists trying to design living things and they're already able to create some rather intricate things using protean folding.

Okay... so... where might the design be in life that isn't in the other complex natural things I've mentioned.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the poor lil' viruses.

They're almost alive. If you sort of squint and they invade and parasite your cells to replicate.
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22-02-2016, 03:46 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:42 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 03:37 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Typically we know things are designed because we've seen them (or similar things) be designed, but that doesn't work well for the origin of life, which we can't observe directly. Although, there are scientists trying to design living things and they're already able to create some rather intricate things using protean folding.

Okay... so... where might the design be in life that isn't in the other complex natural things I've mentioned.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the poor lil' viruses.

They're almost alive. If you sort of squint and they invade and parasite your cells to replicate.

Yeah, my cancer is designed intelligently.

This guy sucks at this.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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22-02-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  We all know that the hallmark of a good design is simplicity. Every idiot can design something complex, its the good designers that are able to design someting with the same features but less complexity.

Then, according to you, if the complexity of life forms is "proof" of anything, its "proof" of bad designers, because of all the unnecessary complexity and unsuitable parts in biological systems on this planet.
I never called it "proof".
Quote:So here you go: Life on earth was -possibly- designed by stupid designers. In fact, so stupid that their own design can recognize this.
.....
...
..
.
Now what?
Now nothing. It's not really important to me if this is how it happened or not, it's just a possibility which I had intended on mentioning in passing before I wound up needing to make this thread.
Quote:Apart from this:
How can you accept ID and evolution both to be true? If "intelligent creators" just created the first single cells as a starting point, then the human brain certianly cant be directly attributed to the creators after 4bio years of random mutation and natural selection.
So why did you bring the human brain into the discussion at all?
By your standard, single cells are the result of some awesome (more or less) intelligent designers, but the human brain is still the result of evolution, and far more awesome than single cells. So Evolution is more awesome than those (more or less) intelligent designers.
Yes, I knew the moment I wrote it that using the human brain as an example was a bad idea. Though the argument could be made that intelligent designers seeded the minimal things necessary to start life and left the rest to the process of evolution, which they knew would take hold. But yes, the single-celled organisms are a much better example which I should have used from the get-go. You seem to already understand how ID and evolution can be compatible though.
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22-02-2016, 04:02 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:55 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 03:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  We all know that the hallmark of a good design is simplicity. Every idiot can design something complex, its the good designers that are able to design someting with the same features but less complexity.

Then, according to you, if the complexity of life forms is "proof" of anything, its "proof" of bad designers, because of all the unnecessary complexity and unsuitable parts in biological systems on this planet.
I never called it "proof".
Quote:So here you go: Life on earth was -possibly- designed by stupid designers. In fact, so stupid that their own design can recognize this.
.....
...
..
.
Now what?
Now nothing. It's not really important to me if this is how it happened or not, it's just a possibility which I had intended on mentioning in passing before I wound up needing to make this thread.
Quote:Apart from this:
How can you accept ID and evolution both to be true? If "intelligent creators" just created the first single cells as a starting point, then the human brain certianly cant be directly attributed to the creators after 4bio years of random mutation and natural selection.
So why did you bring the human brain into the discussion at all?
By your standard, single cells are the result of some awesome (more or less) intelligent designers, but the human brain is still the result of evolution, and far more awesome than single cells. So Evolution is more awesome than those (more or less) intelligent designers.
Yes, I knew the moment I wrote it that using the human brain as an example was a bad idea. Though the argument could be made that intelligent designers seeded the minimal things necessary to start life and left the rest to the process of evolution, which they knew would take hold. But yes, the single-celled organisms are a much better example which I should have used from the get-go. You seem to already understand how ID and evolution can be compatible though.

Look, you seem like a nice enough bloke. Sadly the arguments you offer are old. As a result this line of question answer is redundant.

Do you have any proof to support your position?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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22-02-2016, 04:03 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:31 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If it's mandatory for all of existence to be dependent on a "designer" due to it's complexity - then how did the "designer" pop into existence?

Like a hall of mirrors, the designer would be dependent on a designer to design the designer, who in turn, would have to have a designer who ect, ect..................


...

Simplified version - that the universe just is, as it is and your little brain needs a simple way of coping with something so much larger than you.
It's not "mandatory", but yes, that's a very good point. If life on earth did originate with ID, then it just pushes the true origin of life further down the line.
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22-02-2016, 04:08 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 03:42 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Okay... so... where might the design be in life that isn't in the other complex natural things I've mentioned.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the poor lil' viruses.

They're almost alive. If you sort of squint and they invade and parasite your cells to replicate.
For the sake of this argument, let's just include viruses with the other life forms (I realize they're not "living" in the strict sense). They're less complex, but they depend on more complex living things around them to reproduce, meaning the complexity of a full cell is still pertinent.
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22-02-2016, 04:09 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 04:03 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 03:31 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If it's mandatory for all of existence to be dependent on a "designer" due to it's complexity - then how did the "designer" pop into existence?

Like a hall of mirrors, the designer would be dependent on a designer to design the designer, who in turn, would have to have a designer who ect, ect..................


...

Simplified version - that the universe just is, as it is and your little brain needs a simple way of coping with something so much larger than you.
It's not "mandatory", but yes, that's a very good point. If life on earth did originate with ID, then it just pushes the true origin of life further down the line.

We do not know the true origin of life. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. There is however a great deal wrong with not knowing and pretending one does. As in religion and fairy tales.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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22-02-2016, 04:09 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 04:08 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 03:42 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Okay... so... where might the design be in life that isn't in the other complex natural things I've mentioned.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the poor lil' viruses.

They're almost alive. If you sort of squint and they invade and parasite your cells to replicate.
For the sake of this argument, let's just include viruses with the other life forms (I realize they're not "living" in the strict sense). They're less complex, but they depend on more complex living things around them to reproduce, meaning the complexity of a full cell is still pertinent.

Okay... so... where might the design be in life that isn't in the other complex natural things I've mentioned.
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22-02-2016, 04:15 AM
RE: Intelligent Design
(22-02-2016 04:09 AM)Banjo Wrote:  We do not know the true origin of life. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. There is however a great deal wrong with not knowing and pretending one does. As in religion and fairy tales.
You finally said something sensible. Good job.
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