Intercessory prayer is pointless
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04-09-2017, 06:37 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
It would appear as if Angra Mainyu has finally been given the bum's rush. I'm surprised it took this long. Yes
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04-09-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
I would have been more patient and given Angra seven or eight more seconds.

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04-09-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(04-09-2017 06:30 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I didn't mean the common patterns mean there is any truth in religious sources.

You asked about how inconsistencies can be sorted, I explained that I resolve the inconsistencies that I encounter in religious sources by comparing various sources and omitting the uncommon patterns as fabrications, what remains, the commonality between all major religions that I have studied, is consistent, as I see it.

Again...based on what? You have no basis for concluding that uncommon patterns are fabrications and consistent patterns are not. That's not how we determine accuracy or truth.

That resolves NOTHING, you are arbitrarily rejecting things with no clear basis for doing so.

I'd like to expand on what WD said with my own ideas on this, feel free to correct me WD if you think I have made an error.

I mean lets replace religion with the extended star wars universe (including all non cannon stories). WD already see's where I'm going with this I am sure... lol

You can do exactly what you are doing, which is basically how cannon was decided in the extended star wars universe for the most part... So does that mean you should abandon all other religions and join the Sith? (or Jedi take your pick)...

It's cute that you think you can just throw out shit that doesn't "seem" to fit with the others, that doesn't really matter now does it? People make TONS of literary works, compare them all including religious ones and you'll find you can find common themes and consistencies, that means..... NOTHING. Absolutely fucking nothing. All you've done is demonstrated that humans tend to share certain common ideas consistent with a social species and that you as a human are good at creating order in random data sets.... (don't be too proud of yourself all humans do that) aka you're deriving meaning from things that are meaningless. Unless you can demonstrate ANY of the claims in ANY religious text comparing them all means nothing. It's really just a waste of your fucking time. Why bother?

Edit^ So your method on dealing with religious writings is akin to saying, I'm going to organize these rocks into rocks that make sense to me based on their shape, then I'm going to assign meaning to the rocks I like. Yea, it's that fucking stupid.

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05-09-2017, 12:08 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(04-09-2017 06:30 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I didn't mean the common patterns mean there is any truth in religious sources.

You asked about how inconsistencies can be sorted, I explained that I resolve the inconsistencies that I encounter in religious sources by comparing various sources and omitting the uncommon patterns as fabrications, what remains, the commonality between all major religions that I have studied, is consistent, as I see it.

Again...based on what? You have no basis for concluding that uncommon patterns are fabrications and consistent patterns are not. That's not how we determine accuracy or truth.

That resolves NOTHING, you are arbitrarily rejecting things with no clear basis for doing so.

1. I assumed it is possible that the religions contain the truth as they claim
2. I concluded that if this is the case, all must include this truth
3. I inspected the sources and figured out what is common in all of them, assuming the uncommon parts were fabrications
4. The commonality was consistent
5. Therefore, 1 was still a possibility for me

I guess you are saying that there is no reason to assume it is possible that there is some truth in a text that claims to have the truth. I think your objection is right.

(04-09-2017 06:30 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I mean lets replace religion with the extended star wars universe
The obvious difference between sacred texts and Star Wars is that they claim to have the truth, Star Wars doesn't.
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05-09-2017, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 12:49 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  1. I assumed it is possible that the religions contain the truth as they claim
2. I concluded that if this is the case, all must include this truth
3. I inspected the sources and figured out what is common in all of them, assuming the uncommon parts were fabrications
4. The commonality was consistent
5. Therefore, 1 was still a possibility for me

I guess you are saying that there is no reason to assume it is possible that there is some truth in a text that claims to have the truth. I think your objection is right.
I got all that, I know what you did I don't know why you did. I'm asking you for reasonable justification for your assumptions, because from where I am sitting it doesn't appear that you have any. It strikes me as, in my opinion, far more likely that you already had a conclusion in mind and went about reinforcing that conclusion through a collection of confirmation bias and cheery picking.

I'll quickly go over your list:

1.) It's possible that A religion is actually representative of the truth they claim, but not all because almost every single one makes contradictory claims about the "truth". For example some religions claim their is no afterlife, some claim their is no heaven, some claim that you get reincarnated. None of these are consistent so they must all be fabrications, and thus are not true.

2.) OK so...you are claiming that a religion could contain the truth and if it is the truth all religions would have this truth......but you don't know what that truth is until you compare them...but you don't know what you are looking to find unless you already decide what that truth is..before you compare. It's a giant circle that leads you nowhere and tells you nothing about what is or is not true.

For example a vast majority of holy texts feature talking animals, that is a constant. yet we know animals don't talk. So it's a consistency that is demonstrably false. Consistency is the the road to truth.


3.) If I get together with 20 people, and we all agree to lie to you about the colour of the sky and you walked in and asked us and every single person in that room claimed the sky was red but you said no it's blue than by your logic and methodology the truth would have to be that the sky is red and your instance that the sky is blue is a fabrication. Consistency among claims is not a road to truth.

4.) It's only consistent when you speak and talk in incredibly vague terms because once you get down and look at the details the commonality and consistency vanish. For example some works talk about getting into heaven is based on works others on faith, that's an inconsistency so by your logic both are fabrications and now Christianity has no path to heaven. But there is no heaven under your logic because their are dozens of religions where their is no heaven to even go to making the idea that you go to heaven if you are good not consistent.

If you rip out the inconsistencies in religion that directly prop up the consistencies then it doesn't matter that you can find consistencies, because they no longer have any basis or support.

5.) Right, but it shouldn't be. You don't have evidence, logic, or really ....anything to support that conclusion or assumptions and your back at square one. Your methodology makes no sense and is prone to abuse, for example if one keeps going and investigating claims in more and more specific detail the only logical conclusion is that....atheism is correct because they don't at the micro level have ANYTHING consistent across religions and thus ALL their claims about truth HAVE to be fabrications.



(05-09-2017 12:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The obvious difference between sacred texts and Star Wars is that they claim to have the truth, Star Wars doesn't.

So what? Claiming to have truth doesn't make you more likely to have truth than someone who does not. This point is completely irrelevant.

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05-09-2017, 04:43 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 04:47 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:44 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  1. I assumed it is possible that the religions contain the truth as they claim
1.) It's possible that A religion is actually representative of the truth they claim, but not all because almost every single one makes contradictory claims about the "truth". For example some religions claim their is no afterlife, some claim their is no heaven, some claim that you get reincarnated. None of these are consistent so they must all be fabrications, and thus are not true.

Because of the inherent contradictions within and between religious teachings, and the strength with which people believe them even with their contraditions, the "truths" religions teach us are all psychological and historical -- i.e. about how humans will believe what they are taught in order to meet their social needs regardless of the facts (for example). If you look at religions that way, they are a gold mine of insights about people. Not so much if you look at them otherwise.

In other words, the truth is everywhere, but you have to look at things the right way to see it. You have to learn from all sorts of different areas, and not just religions.
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05-09-2017, 04:50 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 04:43 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:44 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  1.) It's possible that A religion is actually representative of the truth they claim, but not all because almost every single one makes contradictory claims about the "truth". For example some religions claim their is no afterlife, some claim their is no heaven, some claim that you get reincarnated. None of these are consistent so they must all be fabrications, and thus are not true.

Because of the inherent contradictions within and between religious teachings, and the strength with which people believe them even with their contraditions, the "truths" religions teach us are all psychological and historical -- i.e. about how humans will believe what they are taught in order to meet their social needs regardless of the facts (for example). If you look at religions that way, they are a gold mine of insights about people. Not so much if you look at them otherwise.

In other words, the truth is everywhere, but you have to look at things the right way to see it. You have to learn from all sorts of different areas, and not just religions.

There is a large class of people who look at religion as a literal goldmine...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2017, 04:51 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  1. I assumed it is possible that the religions contain the truth as they claim

There is a difference between something being possible and not knowing that it is impossible. Assuming that something is possible like that opens the door for confirmation bias in your search.

Quote:2. I concluded that if this is the case, all must include this truth

That is a completely unwarranted assumption. Even if there is a "truth" to find and even if it is possible for some religion to have grasped it there is no reason to assume that any religion has done so, let alone every religion. You have now made confirmation bias the core tenet of your investigation.

Quote:3. I inspected the sources and figured out what is common in all of them, assuming the uncommon parts were fabrications

Another utterly unwarranted assumption based on the fallacious reasoning in #2.

Quote:4. The commonality was consistent

In other words, the things religions had in common were things that they had in common. Congratulations. Tautologies can sound impressive.

If you actually did identify things in common, why assume they had anything to do with "the truth" instead of assuming that they are all man-made and reflect basic human psychology? Of course human institutions and practices are going to have common elements... humans.

Quote:5. Therefore, 1 was still a possibility for me

And the confirmation bias circle is complete.
1. assume there is a truth to find
2. assume it will be where I look
3. assume that what I look at is what I expected to find
4. profit

Quote:I guess you are saying that there is no reason to assume it is possible that there is some truth in a text that claims to have the truth. I think your objection is right.

Bingo.

Quote:The obvious difference between sacred texts and Star Wars is that they claim to have the truth, Star Wars doesn't.

There is little difference between an apparently fictional story that many believe is true and an apparently fictional story that most people understand really is intentionally fictional. There are plenty of disagreements within religions about which stories are parables and which are historical -- the line between fiction and fact can get pretty blurry over time.

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05-09-2017, 05:20 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 04:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  the line between fiction and fact can get pretty blurry over time.

Unlike the line between friction and fucked which just gets well lubed Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2017, 05:43 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
They seem to view it as God working to fix problems in a world that he is apart from, while touting beliefs that God is in full control of that world in the first place.

As usual, it makes no sense at all. I think people feel like they've done something positive by praying. The problem is that they haven't, and it may act as a substitute for actually doing something real.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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