Intercessory prayer is pointless
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05-09-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
So what if instead of starting with some assumption, you just extract the core commonality and say "is this true?" In the end it's a statement. You want to check the statement for true/false. How do you do that? Also, is the "common core" statement something meaningful or is it just gibberish anyway? Is there any point in evaluating its truth or falsehood?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  You want to check the statement for true/false. How do you do that?
The common core contains a commandment as I see it, something like "surrender to X", and it conditions the realization of the truth to that commandment. It's the individual's choice to give it a try or dismiss the commandment.
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05-09-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:51 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  You want to check the statement for true/false. How do you do that?
The common core contains a commandment as I see it, something like "surrender to X", and it conditions the realization of the truth to that commandment. It's the individual's choice to give it a try or dismiss the commandment.

Can you state what the common core of religion, as you see it, is?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-09-2017, 09:44 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can you state what the common core of religion, as you see it, is?

Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute
all sorts of personal and impersonal God concepts represent the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation
creation in the beginning of time, simultaneous creation, creation as eternal manifestation of the absolute, etc.

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation
Heaven, Nirvana, Self Realization, Annihilation in the absolute, Union, etc.

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation
Hell, Samsara, etc.

Disclaimer: This is merely my interpretation of major religions, I'm not claiming this is the "true" understanding.
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05-09-2017, 09:52 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 09:44 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can you state what the common core of religion, as you see it, is?

Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute
all sorts of personal and impersonal God concepts represent the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation
creation in the beginning of time, simultaneous creation, creation as eternal manifestation of the absolute, etc.

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation
Heaven, Nirvana, Self Realization, Annihilation in the absolute, Union, etc.

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation
Hell, Samsara, etc.

Disclaimer: This is merely my interpretation of major religions, I'm not claiming this is the "true" understanding.

That's very good. I like that a lot. Smile

#sigh
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05-09-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 09:44 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can you state what the common core of religion, as you see it, is?

Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute
all sorts of personal and impersonal God concepts represent the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation
creation in the beginning of time, simultaneous creation, creation as eternal manifestation of the absolute, etc.

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation
Heaven, Nirvana, Self Realization, Annihilation in the absolute, Union, etc.

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation
Hell, Samsara, etc.

Disclaimer: This is merely my interpretation of major religions, I'm not claiming this is the "true" understanding.

Right, so like I said the commonality only exists when you are aloud to be as vague and general as possible.

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06-09-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Yeah, I have to say, those statements all sound kinda vague and mystical to me. Nothing really to sink your teeth into. Nothing crunchy. It does sound more or less like a summary of what most modern religions teach, although certainly several that I've heard of don't have a hell, some (like animism or the Greek / Norse pantheons) don't include an absolute etc.

But I think that's more a summary of good marketing techniques than of underlying universal truths. I think in addition to considering the hypothesis that these do contain some kind of truth, you have to consider the null hypothesis that they're a bunch of made up garbage with similarities due to the fact that humans come up with similar marketing ideas.

1. An "absolute" who grants salvation is a necessary marketing tool - no one will follow a puny God who can't protect them.
2. All that exists - just marketing bullshit from the priests in case anyone looks closer at their crap. Lends a thin veneer of deeper thought to the whole thing.
3. Here's the carrot: get a reward for belief/submission.
4. And the stick: punishment for unbelief.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-09-2017, 12:28 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 09:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 09:44 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute
all sorts of personal and impersonal God concepts represent the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation
creation in the beginning of time, simultaneous creation, creation as eternal manifestation of the absolute, etc.

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation
Heaven, Nirvana, Self Realization, Annihilation in the absolute, Union, etc.

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation
Hell, Samsara, etc.

Disclaimer: This is merely my interpretation of major religions, I'm not claiming this is the "true" understanding.

That's very good. I like that a lot. Smile

It's as good a summary of the 4 Noble Truths as any other.

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06-09-2017, 04:45 AM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 04:50 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:23 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I would disagree, science still cannot show that there is such thing as the mind. As far as I know there is no objective measure to distinguish a human with a mind and a hypothetical philosophical zombie. So how can science show the mind is dependent on the brain while it cannot show it even exists?

You obviously are unaware of what science has been studying about the mind. In dreaming research, for instance, scientists can correlate the details of subjective reports with measurable activity of the human brain. So the answer to your question is that scientists can tell people are alive with a mind or dead without one by measurable brain activity (even aside from all the obvious external indications, and the fact that zombies don't really exist).

As far as how science shows the mind is dependent on the brain, there are loads of studies and observations which support that hypothesis: brain injury cases, studies of people with dementia, brain growth and function studies, sleep and dreaming research, and so on. When the brain changes its structure or electrical activity or chemistry, the observed activity of the mind changes too. We are not the black boxes you seem to think we are.
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06-09-2017, 05:01 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 09:44 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation

And here is what science tells us:

1. "The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another." (Google)

2. Einstein's equation E=mc2 demonstrates that energy is equivalent with matter.

3. We are complex arrangements of matter, and when that arrangement changes or falls apart our consciousness (which depends on it) changes or disappears.

4. Therefore, there is no heaven or hell to worry about. Those ideas were based on misunderstandings of the nature of reality.
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