Intercessory prayer is pointless
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06-09-2017, 06:52 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 09:44 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can you state what the common core of religion, as you see it, is?

Here's how I'd put my understanding:

1. There is an unlimited existence : the absolute
all sorts of personal and impersonal God concepts represent the absolute

2. All that exists comes from the unlimited existence : creation
creation in the beginning of time, simultaneous creation, creation as eternal manifestation of the absolute, etc.

3. Those who choose to submit their existence to the absolute, return to it. Attaining unconditional peace : salvation
Heaven, Nirvana, Self Realization, Annihilation in the absolute, Union, etc.

4. Those who choose not to submit their existence to the absolute, suffer : damnation
Hell, Samsara, etc.

Disclaimer: This is merely my interpretation of major religions, I'm not claiming this is the "true" understanding.

Do Hindus and Buddhists have a concept of salvation and damnation?
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06-09-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Apologies if this has already been posted; I didn't have the time to read through 120 comments... Unsure

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in Cardiac Bypass Patients.

Quote:CONCLUSIONS:

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Gasp

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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06-09-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 06:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Do Hindus and Buddhists have a concept of salvation and damnation?

As I understand them, yes. Attaining Nirvana would be salvation, remaining in Samsara would be damnation. Samsara is not pure suffering like the Christian Hell, it is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, pain and pleasure.
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06-09-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 10:58 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 06:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Do Hindus and Buddhists have a concept of salvation and damnation?

As I understand them, yes. Attaining Nirvana would be salvation, remaining in Samsara would be damnation. Samsara is not pure suffering like the Christian Hell, it is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, pain and pleasure.

Do you have to believe a certain thing in these religions to get a favorable spiritual outcome, or is it based on good deeds?
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06-09-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 11:29 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 10:58 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As I understand them, yes. Attaining Nirvana would be salvation, remaining in Samsara would be damnation. Samsara is not pure suffering like the Christian Hell, it is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, pain and pleasure.

Do you have to believe a certain thing in these religions to get a favorable spiritual outcome, or is it based on good deeds?

I wa$ under the impre$$ion it i$ all ba$ed on tithing. Consider

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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06-09-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 11:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 11:29 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Do you have to believe a certain thing in these religions to get a favorable spiritual outcome, or is it based on good deeds?

I wa$ under the impre$$ion it i$ all ba$ed on tithing. Consider

> Indeed. God always needs money. Yes
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06-09-2017, 12:00 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 11:29 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 10:58 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As I understand them, yes. Attaining Nirvana would be salvation, remaining in Samsara would be damnation. Samsara is not pure suffering like the Christian Hell, it is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, pain and pleasure.

Do you have to believe a certain thing in these religions to get a favorable spiritual outcome, or is it based on good deeds?

In general, all religions seek union with some notion of the absolute, obviously belief in the absolute is necessary for the devotee to strive for the union, which is referred to as Nirvana in these religions, so yes, Nirvana would be meaningless without a belief in the absolute (Brahman is the absolute in most Hindu religions)

Good/bad deeds are referred to as good/bad Karma in these religions, Nirvana is always possible for someone who truly seeks the union, regardless of the Karmic state. This is very similar to the concept of forgiveness in Abrahamic religions, no matter how much sin, God can forgive a believer.
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06-09-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 04:45 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  You obviously are unaware of what science has been studying about the mind. In dreaming research, for instance, scientists can correlate the details of subjective reports with measurable activity of the human brain. So the answer to your question is that scientists can tell people are alive with a mind or dead without one by measurable brain activity (even aside from all the obvious external indications, and the fact that zombies don't really exist).

As far as how science shows the mind is dependent on the brain, there are loads of studies and observations which support that hypothesis: brain injury cases, studies of people with dementia, brain growth and function studies, sleep and dreaming research, and so on. When the brain changes its structure or electrical activity or chemistry, the observed activity of the mind changes too. We are not the black boxes you seem to think we are.

I think you are right. My perception about this issue was kinda unrealistic. I did a brief overview of some related scientific works. But I still think there are very serious problems, can we figure out whether whales have a mind or not? Can we prove to an alien that we have a mind?
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06-09-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 11:29 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Do you have to believe a certain thing in these religions to get a favorable spiritual outcome, or is it based on good deeds?

In general, all religions seek union with some notion of the absolute, obviously belief in the absolute is necessary for the devotee to strive for the union, which is referred to as Nirvana in these religions, so yes, Nirvana would be meaningless without a belief in the absolute (Brahman is the absolute in most Hindu religions)

Good/bad deeds are referred to as good/bad Karma in these religions, Nirvana is always possible for someone who truly seeks the union, regardless of the Karmic state. This is very similar to the concept of forgiveness in Abrahamic religions, no matter how much sin, God can forgive a believer.

Judaism does not teach that one must believe anything. We teach that all people will gain a share in the world to come if they're good people. Being Jewish doesn't aid (and can actually hinder) one in this pursuit. We also teach that if you commit a sin, you actually have to rectify it through action. Believing in someone or something does not neutralize the sin.

How the hell does believing that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt help someone you've wronged in business? How does it ease the pain of a spouse that has been cheated on?
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06-09-2017, 12:30 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:11 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Can we prove to an alien that we have a mind?

Well, if he's hostile we can blast him.
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