Intercessory prayer is pointless
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06-09-2017, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 12:49 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism does not teach that one must believe anything. We teach that all people will gain a share in the world to come if they're good people. Being Jewish doesn't aid (and can actually hinder) one in this pursuit. We also teach that if you commit a sin, you actually have to rectify it through action. Believing in someone or something does not neutralize the sin.

How the hell does believing that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt help someone you've wronged in business? How does it ease the pain of a spouse that has been cheated on?

Thanks for the information. I think this is the case with Hindu religions and Buddhism also. As I said Samsara is not pure suffering. The accumulated Karma will determine the destination of the individual. Good Karma will raise the individual towards heavenly realms, bad Karma pushed the individual towards the Hellish realms, the earth is in the middle. (This is the case with Buddhism, Hindu religions are a bit different)

So all good people will gain a good share in their next life according to their deeds regardless of their intention and belief. But they are still in Samsara, it's transient, they are prone to fall again. I think this state would resemble lower heavens in Judaism.

Nirvana is the complete cessation of Karma, when the individual is freed from his actions and attains union with the absolute. The cycle ends and the devotee abides in absolute peacefulness. I think this would resemble the highest heaven in Judaism. I think belief is necessary to join the Lord in his throne, isn't it?
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06-09-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:41 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 12:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism does not teach that one must believe anything. We teach that all people will gain a share in the world to come if they're good people. Being Jewish doesn't aid (and can actually hinder) one in this pursuit. We also teach that if you commit a sin, you actually have to rectify it through action. Believing in someone or something does not neutralize the sin.

How the hell does believing that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt help someone you've wronged in business? How does it ease the pain of a spouse that has been cheated on?

Thanks for the information. I think this is the case with Hindu religions and Buddhism also. As I said Samsara is not pure suffering. The accumulated Karma will determine the destination of the individual. Good Karma will raise the individual towards heavenly realms, bad Karma pushed the individual towards the Hellish realms, the earth is in the middle. (This is the case with Buddhism, Hindu religions are a bit different)

So all good people will gain a good share in their next life according to their deeds regardless of their intention and belief. But they are still in Samsara, it's transient, they are prone to fall again. I think this state would resemble lower heavens in Judaism.

Nirvana is the complete cessation of Karma, when the individual is freed from his actions and attains union with the absolute. The cycle ends and the devotee abides in absolute peacefulness. I think this would resemble the highest heaven in Judaism. I think belief is necessary to join the Lord in his throne, isn't it?

Belief is not a component according to Judaism. Also, "the world to come" is physical. It's the messianic age here on Earth when and where the righteous are resurrected. Those who didn't merit resurrection just remain in the world of souls, where one does not retain their consciousness or sense of self.
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06-09-2017, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 08:25 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 01:09 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Belief is not a component according to Judaism

This sounds very strange to me. What do you mean by "righteous"? righteous according to what? I think a belief in how "good" is represented in Judaism is necessary, one must believe in Torah before he/she can perform all the commandments.

Beliefs are not necessarily separate from actions. Beliefs inform actions.

Quote: Also, "the world to come" is physical

The concept of heaven on Earth after the coming of a promised Messiah and resurrection of the righteous is present in most religions. But I think there are other heavenly and hellish realms in Judaism other than the Earth. Judaism, just like any other religion, offers a wide range of possibilities about after life.
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06-09-2017, 08:41 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism does not teach that one must believe anything. We teach that all people will gain a share in the world to come if they're good people.

I just did a quick research about the status of non-Jews is Judaism, and I think what you said is not quite accurate, non-Jews must adhere to Seven Laws of Noah to be counted among the righteous.

1. Do not deny God.
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat from a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to said laws.

So belief in God and at least part of his book (the above commandments) are ultimately necessary, as I understand it.
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06-09-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 08:18 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  This sounds very strange to me. What do you mean by "righteous"? righteous according to what? I think a belief in how "good" is represented in Judaism is necessary, one must believe in Torah before he/she can perform all the commandments.

Beliefs are not necessarily separate from actions. Beliefs inform actions.

The moral code in question is more or less intuitive. Don't worship idols (ie: no human sacrifice), don't cheat on your spouse, don't murder, don't steal, don't eat the limb of a living amimal, don't blaspheme G-d (which doesn't mean saying "God damn" or "I don't believe in God, and if he was real, I'd think he was a motherfucker), and lastly, live in a society that establishes and enforces laws that don't conflict with the laws I just mentioned.

Belief in said deity doesn't matter and Jews don't teach that our religion is better than any other religion, provided that other religion doesn't conflict with those laws.

(06-09-2017 08:18 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The concept of heaven on Earth after the coming of a promised Messiah and resurrection of the righteous is present in most religions. But I think there are other heavenly and hellish realms in Judaism other than the Earth. Judaism, just like any other religion, offers a wide range of possibilities about after life.

Well you sound like you know enough about Judaism and all other world religions to speak from a position of authority.
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06-09-2017, 08:55 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 08:43 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well you sound like you know enough about Judaism and all other world religions to speak from a position of authority.

This is not my intention to give you that impression. I'm sorry if that's how what I said sounds. I know for example that the concept of Seven Heavens is a shared feature in all major religions, including Hinduism.
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06-09-2017, 09:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 09:14 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 12:41 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As I said Samsara is not pure suffering.

It is the suffering that comes with the act of wanting. Do not want. Do not attach. Be. ... At least that's what I think the fuckers were saying. Hippies on hallucinogens always crack me up. Tongue

#sigh
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06-09-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 09:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 12:41 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As I said Samsara is not pure suffering.

It is the suffering that comes with the act of wanting. Do not want. Do not attach. Be. ... At least that's what I think the fuckers were saying. Hippies on hallucinogens always crack me up. Tongue

True, but as I understand it, there are good attachments and bad attachments. It's encouraged to accumulate good karma or good attachments, since good karma burns easily and the individual can be freed from his karma with less trouble, unlike the bad karma which sticks. Regardless, all attachments, all karma, all sense of doership, good or bad, must cease to end the cycle of Samsara.
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06-09-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 08:43 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The moral code in question is more or less intuitive. Don't worship idols (ie: no human sacrifice), don't cheat on your spouse, don't murder, don't steal, don't eat the limb of a living amimal, don't blaspheme G-d (which doesn't mean saying "God damn" or "I don't believe in God, and if he was real, I'd think he was a motherfucker), and lastly, live in a society that establishes and enforces laws that don't conflict with the laws I just mentioned.

You over-complicate the code. Listen to your Hillel the Elder,

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn"

Tongue

#sigh
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06-09-2017, 09:24 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(06-09-2017 09:21 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(06-09-2017 09:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It is the suffering that comes with the act of wanting. Do not want. Do not attach. Be. ... At least that's what I think the fuckers were saying. Hippies on hallucinogens always crack me up. Tongue

True, but as I understand it, there are good attachments and bad attachments. It's encouraged to accumulate good karma or good attachments, since good karma burns easily and the individual can be freed from his karma with less trouble, unlike the bad karma which sticks. Regardless, all attachments, all karma, all sense of doership, good or bad, must cease to end the cycle of Samsara.

Okay, this concept of "good v. bad" attachment seems inconsistent with the basic premise of non-attachment.

#sigh
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