Intercessory prayer is pointless
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07-09-2017, 06:28 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 06:36 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 05:39 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 05:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There's only a problem when there's a lack of sufficient diversity. Tongue
The damn thing is never sufficient.

When my stools are solid and come out clean, my diversity is good. When I shit "No need to wipe." turds, my gut is good with me. When my stools are too loose or too hard or too often or too few, the ecosystem needs adjustment. How do you gauge sufficient diversity if not by your stools? The no-wipe shit is the ultimate sign your gut flora are happy, I didn't have to wipe. That's clean. Thumbsup

#sigh
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07-09-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 04:42 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 04:33 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  There is simply no reason for a religious or mystical overlay to science. They are decidedly unscientific.
Of course they are unscientific. All religions were deemed "unreligious" within the context they were born.

(07-09-2017 04:33 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  B. Your God (the Absolute so called) comes out of my wall sockets. That should cause you some cognitive dissonance.
My absolute comes out of pretty much everything. Interestingly, everything comes out of it.

Quote:I think the whole commanding self / true self dichotomy is false and dangerous.
That's what makes it interesting.

Quote:D. Get back to me in another 20 years, and let me know if you still think the same.
Of course I won't. I'm just enjoying what I'm right now. Do you think there is a problem about it? Give me a word of wisdom.
How and what are deemed umreligious I'm reality about anything I'm early religious founding?

What was unreligious about the Christianity of mixing judism, Roman, and Egyptian regional thoughts on religion into one.. or in Muhammeds condensing the Islamic tribal thoughts. Or even modern mormonism or scientology.

They'd be determined false and lies but nothing about them is not religious. The status quo stasis of established religions doesn't prevent them from being called false and lies.

You just seem really reaching when gaps in knowledge or possible to know questions still linger. Science would only risk becoming a religion if people began to believe in things the way religious people do opposed to use it as the tool it is, to search for demonstrable incorrect answers and weed out the false ideas.

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07-09-2017, 07:07 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Did you type that on your onscreen keyboard, Clyde?

(07-09-2017 06:38 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Yup! That clears it up. Tongue
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07-09-2017, 08:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 08:46 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 05:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What is that Sufi assumption about the nature of self you find highly questionable?

Sufism, which is a variety of pantheism, hypothesizes that the self can become one with God through realizing there is already a direct connection. The so-called commanding self is what stands in the way of this realization, by narrowing our conception of the self to the physical body with all its conditioned responses. "Dying before you die" is the goal of Sufi mysticism, i.e. to die to the false, commanding self so you can realize your true self connected to God. It is assumed that we lose the commanding self when we die for real, so you are just dying early and saving yourself the trauma later.

However, the whole conceptual scheme is just one big jumble of unproven assumptions, and to try to live by them is to become a person who can rationalize anything and everything as coming from God.

In a word, Sufis are the most extreme rationalizers I have ever encountered. They are beyond being mere apologists who think they can speak for God. They think they are God.
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08-09-2017, 12:58 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 08:05 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  In a word, Sufis are the most extreme rationalizers I have ever encountered. They are beyond being mere apologists who think they can speak for God. They think they are God.

Girly does too Facepalm

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-09-2017, 05:37 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 05:54 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 06:38 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How and what are deemed umreligious I'm reality about anything I'm early religious founding?
As I see it, religions are belief systems that try to describe the perceived reality. As the perceived reality evolves, the systems also evolve. New systems always provide new methods to approach the reality, negating and replacing some beliefs of the previous systems, so they are always deemed "unreligious" when they first appear.

Quote:What was unreligious about the Christianity of mixing judism, Roman, and Egyptian regional thoughts on religion into one.. or in Muhammeds condensing the Islamic tribal thoughts. Or even modern mormonism or scientology.
I think your idea of these religions is simplistic.

Christianity and the concept of divinity of man was indeed unreligious in its context, the idea of a distant, separate and unreachable God in Judaism was strongly challenged by the notion of Son of God, the idea that divinity reaches to men through the Son.

Islam strongly contradicted the polytheistic beliefs, the idea that emanated from the belief that there can be multiple independent agents. It opposed all those views and held that there is one authority and all are mere slaves. This was very unreligious, in a context that there were many diverse and independent Gods, represented as inanimate objects created and worshipped by men. Believing in only one effective will, led people to realize that the universe must be consistent, since there are no conflicting agencies at work. I think it provided the ground for the scientific method to emerge. (First use of the scientific method is commonly attributed to a muslim named Ibn al-Haytham)

I think science dismisses the idea of any agency within the universe as the primal cause, it asserts the perceived reality is as it is, and is governed by certain laws that can be understood by the scientific method. Ultimately, the idea that reason and mathematical tools can be used to describe the perceived reality is merely a belief, just like other religious beliefs. I don't see any fundamental difference, other than the fact that it has more explanatory power.

Quote:You just seem really reaching when gaps in knowledge or possible to know questions still linger. Science would only risk becoming a religion if people began to believe in things the way religious people do opposed to use it as the tool it is, to search for demonstrable incorrect answers and weed out the false ideas.
We have already started to believe science. We are starting to believe in the the reality of force and energy. We believe in mere mathematical notions. Belief in the unseen is what makes religions, religion, I think.
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08-09-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Unseen in what context? Observable data is the basis of the tool.

But I see unaware Christians of yec ideas think the notion of Seeing is apparently just the visible spectrum of light. But you're testing and seeing ultraviolet and infrared light, gravity effects, microwaves, radioeaves, etc. It's a lot more than a basis of a prophetic failure.

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08-09-2017, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 06:34 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 06:09 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Unseen in what context? Observable data is the basis of the tool.

But I see unaware Christians of yec ideas think the notion of Seeing is apparently just the visible spectrum of light. But you're testing and seeing ultraviolet and infrared light, gravity effects, microwaves, radioeaves, etc. It's a lot more than a basis of a prophetic failure.

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In this sense, there is nothing unobservable about God, yet he is unseen. All that exists is manifestation of his attributes, and all that moves and changes are his actions. It just doesn't have enough explanatory power for a mind that seeks further and further discrimination and categorization. So some might prefer to replace it with force, mass, energy and other mathematical concepts to enjoy their explanatory power to further discriminate the reality. Energy is not "more observable" than God, I think. It's observable, but unseen, just like God.
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08-09-2017, 06:38 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Yes if you say in pantheistic way that God is everything it's observable. But what's different to that from no god to god is everything.

If within that thought you take the one step further... just one step to say, what if all that is was that is and no added god concepts were there. Exactly what changes?.. nothing..

So what has the idea of thought of God done? It just filled in the unknown until there was no need for that placeholder anymore.

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08-09-2017, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 07:15 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 06:38 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes if you say in pantheistic way that God is everything it's observable. But what's different to that from no god to god is everything.

If within that thought you take the one step further... just one step to say, what if all that is was that is and no added god concepts were there. Exactly what changes?.. nothing..

So what has the idea of thought of God done? It just filled in the unknown until there was no need for that placeholder anymore.

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Nothing would be different. I will just fail to see the patterns I loved to see, like how God nourishes his creation with rain and how he sustains everything with a glorious sun. Now what if in one step you forget all that you have learned about science? What changes? Other than losing your beloved patterns?

Science and religions are there to satisfy our insatiable mind to seek patterns and discrimination in our perceived reality, which ultimately helps us with our basic needs and survival and finally greed. Reality is as it is, science, God or any other concept does not affect it, as I see it.
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