Intercessory prayer is pointless
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08-09-2017, 07:07 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 06:23 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Energy is not "more observable" than God, I think. It's observable, but unseen, just like God.

I have to say I think that's right. Demonstrably right even.

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08-09-2017, 07:11 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
What I don't get is his need to find a unteligoius

The more ancient Zoriasterism was the "unreligious" propigator of that thought.

Islam just followed exactly what Judaism did and followed Christianity a bit. Taking a figure from your cultures polytheistic deities and putting it as the square one.

Hell, even though Allah really came from a more moon deity they somehow co-opted the Abrahamic god as the origin of its supposed bent.

Nothing they did in forming that or any religion in the last 3000 years have been so outlandishly irreligious to see them as divided. They are unified in answer professing humanity has done since before documentation.

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08-09-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 07:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What I don't get is his need to find a unteligoius

Do you mean an "unintelligible"? I think there is a distinction between "unintelligible" and "ineffable", FurryNasal is arguing for the ineffable, I think, even though I find that thought incongruous, like by definition.

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08-09-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 06:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 12:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  Girly does too Facepalm

I will now use the google to establish whether Sufi are Girly, or Girly is Sufi. Since I barely even heard of Sufi, my guess is Sufi are Girly and we just happened to arrive at the same conclusions. Big Grin

Good God, I'm a fucking atheist Muslim? Hobo I could've sworn I was an atheist Christian. Hobo Hobo

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08-09-2017, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 09:22 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 12:13 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What decisions do you make informed by religion that are not also informed by observation? If it's not something that is based in observation, it's nonfalsifiable.
When I'm helping the poor, I try to use observation to figure out whether the poor really needs my help or not. So my hypothesis that X is poor is falsifiable, only after my thesis is reasonably proven I will help. The basis of helping the poor is the commandment of my God and is nonfalsifiable, but I take advantage of falsifiability in doing it.

Quote:My point is that it has no apparent bearing on reality
I don't think that's true. As a theist I see all that there is as a manifestation of my God. How is it not "apparent bearing on reality"?

Quote:, and any claim to the contrary is nonfalsifiable
Of course my God is nonfalsifiable, a falsifiable God is not a God. Although science heavily relies on falsifiability, I don't think all that science says is falsifiable. Such as:
- There is a reality
- There is something to understand about reality (this is highly questionable for me)
- Reason is reliable for understanding about reality
- The reality is consistent
- The perceived reality is reliable for making judgements about the reality itself
- Mathematical models can be used to describe the reality
- There is energy, there is force, there is mass, ...
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08-09-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 07:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  They are unified in answer professing humanity has done since before documentation.
I'm defending the position that science can join this beautiful unification that you are seeing in religions.

Let's suppose we create some "super-intelligence" to do the truth finding process for us with some "super-scientific method". Science will look like a joke and we would be comfortable counting it among the others.
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08-09-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 09:21 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 07:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  They are unified in answer professing humanity has done since before documentation.
I'm defending the position that science can join this beautiful unification that you are seeing in religions.

Let's suppose we create some "super-intelligence" to do the truth finding process for us with some "super-scientific method". Science will look like a joke and we would be comfortable counting it among the others.

You are seeing this "beautiful union". I'm seeing a bunch of mystic mumbo-jumbo. Which I devoutly hope will die a natural death as actual rational thought prevails, though I'm not holding my breath. People seem to have some ridiculous need for mysticism.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-09-2017, 11:02 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 10:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... People seem to have some ridiculous need for mysticism ...

It's not ridiculous. Preserving mysticism enables impossible hopes. Most of our fondest hopes are impossible, but only few of us are grown up enough to concede their impossibility and limit our hopes to what's possible. Not everybody can accept that the future will sometimes (even mostly) be disappointing. Mysticism preserves the delusion that the future will be less bleak than the present. It's not ridiculous; it's our natural state until educated out of it.
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09-09-2017, 12:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2017 12:52 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 10:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  You are seeing this "beautiful union". I'm seeing a bunch of mystic mumbo-jumbo. Which I devoutly hope will die a natural death as actual rational thought prevails, though I'm not holding my breath. People seem to have some ridiculous need for mysticism.
[Image: Duck_Rabbit_illusion.jpg]

I think ambiguity is inherent to language. The above picture is as it is. But when one attempts to understand it and express it, ambiguity will be inevitable. Do you really think science is not ambiguous and mystical? I don't think so.

And come on, union is always beautiful, even if it's fake. We have a whole lot of art and literature to prove that!
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09-09-2017, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2017 01:38 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(07-09-2017 08:05 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  They think they are God.

I don't think Sufis claim "I'm God", do they? As far as I know they use the third pronoun ("hu" in Arabic) to refer to God. Their motto of "There is no he but he" is a better representative of Sufis than "I'm God", I think.
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