Intercessory prayer is pointless
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09-09-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 10:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 07:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I have to say I think that's right. Demonstrably right even.

Lightning.

RF and EM. Tongue

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10-09-2017, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 09:07 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 10:30 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Considering you have contributed very little other than assertions in this thread what have you to envy?
I'm consciously trying to imply in my sentences that I'm merely expressing my thoughts and opinions, not assertions. I'm sorry if I'm not communicating this effectively.

I find this discussion an interesting exercise in comparing science and religion and how they are similar or different. I think I'm learning and developing my understanding of both science and religion in the process and I'm already thankful to you guys for giving me this opportunity. I find your critical inputs pretty constructive.

But I realize you guys might not be as much interested, in which case I'm not insisting on continuing this discussion, please let me know if this is the case and I will stop. Smile

(09-09-2017 10:56 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  The problem you are failing to see though is that one methodology, science, produces accurate, demonstrable, testable, falsifiable evidence...
As I understood, you are saying the scientific methodology is valid due to certain advantages, other methodologies described in religions, such as Yoga, are not actually methodologies due to lacking those essential advantages.

Let's hold the issue of methodology there, do you agree that if religions could provide valid methodologies to approach the truth within their own context (understanding the reality of God for example), they could have been legitimately put in the same group as science? if not, what other issues you think are there?
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10-09-2017, 09:53 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... understanding the reality of God ...

So long as religion thinks that this phrase is anything other than complete nonsense, lacking any meaning, it cannot attain any useful role in understanding reality. Until the term "god" is given hard definition, any phrase incorporating it as if that definition exists is wholly meaningless.
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10-09-2017, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 10:50 AM by Aliza.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 10:30 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Considering you have contributed very little other than assertions in this thread what have you to envy?
I'm consciously trying to imply in my sentences that I'm merely expressing my thoughts and opinions, not assertions. I'm sorry if I'm not communicating this effectively.

I find this discussion an interesting exercise in comparing science and religion and how they are similar or different. I think I'm learning and developing my understanding of both science and religion in the process and I'm already thankful to you guys for giving me this opportunity. I find your critical inputs pretty constructive.

But I realize you guys might not be as much interested, in which case I'm not insisting on continuing this discussion, please let me know if this is the case and I will stop. Smile

(09-09-2017 10:56 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  The problem you are failing to see though is that one methodology, science, produces accurate, demonstrable, testable, falsifiable evidence...
As I understood, you are saying the scientific methodology is valid due to certain advantages, other methodologies described in religions, such as Yoga, are not actually methodologies due to lacking those essential advantages.

Let's hold the issue of methodology there, do you agree that if religions could provide valid methodologies to approach the truth within their own context (understanding the reality of God for example), they could have been legitimately put in the same group as science? if not, what other issues you think are there?

You’re not resonating with this community. You’re trying to explain how science and religion are related to a community of people who process information in a way that appears to be totally foreign to you. You cannot reach this community using the tools you have in your toolbox.

When you have a science education, as learned from other scientists (preferably from a regionally accredited university), you will then be in a better position to communicate more effectively with this community. For now, you’re like my mother telling me to store my documents in my dishwasher because her mahjong friends told her they saw it on Facebook. All evidence shows that dishwashers are a terrible place to store your family photos and documents, but it really sounds like a good idea.
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10-09-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Well said. You need to know your audience, if you have any desire to have a meaningful discussion. You need to at least attempt to find some common ground.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-09-2017, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 12:16 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 09:53 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... understanding the reality of God ...

So long as religion thinks that this phrase is anything other than complete nonsense, lacking any meaning, it cannot attain any useful role in understanding reality. Until the term "god" is given hard definition, any phrase incorporating it as if that definition exists is wholly meaningless.

It's basically the same thing Einstein the Spinozist said. Einstein claimed to be religious nonbeliever. Spinozism is a rational attempt at grounding that statement and employing science to find the Girly. Problem is they thought God could be found deterministically, but when they finally made first contact they found a limitation in their ability to grasp God. They could grasp aspects in isolation, but the mere act of looking into the Face of Bob, fixed it and it lost all Slack. As my sons say during our time in the dohyō, "He's too fat! I can't get a grip on his fatness!" ... Big Grin

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10-09-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 06:27 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 02:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Then you'd be wrong...

You seem very certain about your assertions. I envy your faith. Are you truly so certain about what you say, or it's just how it looks?

I am very certain about my assertions regarding the futility of people having religious beliefs—totally devoid of any supporting, empirical evidence for that "faith".

I also accept—absolutely—the tenets of science, which are fully supported by viable evidence which has been observed, theorised and replicated over thousands of years; from Pythagoras and Zu Chongzhi, to Galileo and Bacon, to Hawking and Venter. From whom does the putative evidence for the words of holy books, such as the Christian bible come? A disparate group of scientifically-illiterate desert nomads that penned them more than 2,000 years ago? And which have never once been amended or updated even as the natural sciences developed over that time?

And yes: I'm 100% certain that God or gods are non-existent. Just as I'm certain that leprechauns or fairies or unicorns don't exist in the real world.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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10-09-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 08:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Let's hold the issue of methodology there, do you agree that if religions could provide valid methodologies...

LOL... that's a pretty big fucking IF ain't it? I could well say, as an atheist, that if I could fly, I'd save a lot on air fares. Facepalm

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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10-09-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 01:52 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 06:27 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You seem very certain about your assertions. I envy your faith. Are you truly so certain about what you say, or it's just how it looks?

I am very certain about my assertions regarding the futility of people having religious beliefs—totally devoid of any supporting, empirical evidence for that "faith".

I also accept—absolutely—the tenets of science, which are fully supported by viable evidence which has been observed, theorised and replicated over thousands of years; from Pythagoras and Zu Chongzhi, to Galileo and Bacon, to Hawking and Venter. From whom does the putative evidence for the words of holy books, such as the Christian bible come? A disparate group of scientifically-illiterate desert nomads that penned them more than 2,000 years ago? And which have never once been amended or updated even as the natural sciences developed over that time?

And yes: I'm 100% certain that God or gods are non-existent. Just as I'm certain that leprechauns or fairies or unicorns don't exist in the real world.

Cue more mystical bullshit Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-09-2017, 02:15 PM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2017 02:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(10-09-2017 01:52 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I am very certain about my assertions regarding the futility of people having religious beliefs—totally devoid of any supporting, empirical evidence for that "faith".

There is empirical support for an inverse correlation between religious involvement and all-cause mortality among the middle-aged who are deciding whether they really want to go through all the bother of growing old or not. Tongue

Strong association between religious attendance and mortality risk among middle-age U.S. adults
 Non-attenders particularly stand out (52% higher mortality risk than frequent attenders, in most completely specified model); upwards of 80% higher risk in less completely specified models
 Moderate-to-modestly higher mortality (depending on model specification) among less frequent attenders, compared with frequent attenders
 3 behavioral factors account for ~ 40% of the mortality differences between attendance groups
 4th very high quality national data set to support this relationship net of stringent controls; this one in a single cohort

(10-09-2017 01:52 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I also accept—absolutely—the tenets of science, ...

I don't. As a trained scientist, I was taught not to. We refine and create new methodologies all the time. The only real tenets of science are "Is there a plausible theory to support the observations?" and "Are the observations repeatable under this theory using accepted methodologies?" And in medical science, the repeatability is often more important than the theory. (Do we completely understand the mechanism of even aspirin yet?)

(10-09-2017 01:52 PM)SYZ Wrote:  And yes: I'm 100% certain that God or gods are non-existent. Just as I'm certain that leprechauns or fairies or unicorns don't exist in the real world.

You just haven't met the Girly.

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