Intercessory prayer is pointless
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11-09-2017, 12:29 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 11:02 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 10:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... People seem to have some ridiculous need for mysticism ...

It's not ridiculous. Preserving mysticism enables impossible hopes. Most of our fondest hopes are impossible, but only few of us are grown up enough to concede their impossibility and limit our hopes to what's possible. Not everybody can accept that the future will sometimes (even mostly) be disappointing. Mysticism preserves the delusion that the future will be less bleak than the present. It's not ridiculous; it's our natural state until educated out of it.

One can have hopes and dreams while recognising that they are possibly not ever going to be realised and if realised will take a lot of hard work to achieve. I don't see any need to add mystical ideas to that... Like... what are you even adding? False hope?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-09-2017, 01:34 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 12:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... what are you even adding? False hope?

Exactly. Only it's not seen as false hope.

Let's say one of your fondest aspirations is to be the world's best saxophonist. You practice diligently, get to know the instrument intimately, yet cannot attain virtuoso capability. You chalk the shortfall up to not yet enough practiced and keep at it. It's your dream; it would be inconceivable that you should not be able to reach the apex of human performance in your fondest endeavor, especially if you apply yourself to it with high discipline.

But your mouth/larnyx/lung/tongue/jaw/lips configuration makes that impossible. Your facial musculature and neurological rigging make certain necessary arrangements of facial tension impossible. Practice will only get you to 65% of the best possible, anything more could only be achieved by neuro and plastic surgery (assuming the surgeons would even know exactly what changes to make, and do it without scar tissue irredeemably leaving you still short of ideal).

So your dream, your fondest aspiration, is in truth denied you, absolutely. How many of us can cope with that crushing a disappointment? How much easier it is to believe in a supernatural attainment of what you think the universe OWES you.

Sticking by science is HARD. It means acceptance of disappointments that are significantly life affecting. Science RUINS parties.

Science obviously has other much more rewarding compensations. Unfortunately, they're out of reach until we've first let go of the false fond hopes, and for so much of humanity letting go is not high on the list of our general human competencies.
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11-09-2017, 01:50 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 01:34 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  So your dream, your fondest aspiration, is in truth denied you, absolutely. How many of us can cope with that crushing a disappointment? How much easier it is to believe in a supernatural attainment of what you think the universe OWES you.

Sticking by science is HARD. It means acceptance of disappointments that are significantly life affecting. Science RUINS parties.

Science obviously has other much more rewarding compensations. Unfortunately, they're out of reach until we've first let go of the false fond hopes, and for so much of humanity letting go is not high on the list of our general human competencies.

Hmm. Using your example, if it's your goal to be the best saxophonist in the world then a. maybe your sights are set too high - what's wrong with being a *very good* saxophonist? Being the best in the world is always going to be a struggle. b. Being the best is subjective. c. Religious or non-religious, delusional or not, the fact remains that you cannot have your dream... you still have to accept that disappointment. I don't see that adding some mystic element to that whole deal does anything for you?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-09-2017, 01:59 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 01:34 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Exactly. Only it's not seen as false hope.

Let's say one of your fondest aspirations is to be the world's best saxophonist. You practice diligently, get to know the instrument intimately, yet cannot attain virtuoso capability. You chalk the shortfall up to not yet enough practiced and keep at it. It's your dream; it would be inconceivable that you should not be able to reach the apex of human performance in your fondest endeavor, especially if you apply yourself to it with high discipline.

But your mouth/larnyx/lung/tongue/jaw/lips configuration makes that impossible. Your facial musculature and neurological rigging make certain necessary arrangements of facial tension impossible. Practice will only get you to 65% of the best possible, anything more could only be achieved by neuro and plastic surgery (assuming the surgeons would even know exactly what changes to make, and do it without scar tissue irredeemably leaving you still short of ideal).

So your dream, your fondest aspiration, is in truth denied you, absolutely. How many of us can cope with that crushing a disappointment? How much easier it is to believe in a supernatural attainment of what you think the universe OWES you.

Sticking by science is HARD. It means acceptance of disappointments that are significantly life affecting. Science RUINS parties.

Science obviously has other much more rewarding compensations. Unfortunately, they're out of reach until we've first let go of the false fond hopes, and for so much of humanity letting go is not high on the list of our general human competencies.





NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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11-09-2017, 03:46 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Quote:I asked for strength and
God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom and
God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity and
God gave me brawn and brains to work.

I asked for courage and
God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for patience and
God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

I asked for love and
God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors and
God gave me opportunities.

I received nothing I wanted

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11-09-2017, 05:51 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 09:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  here is a list of unfalsifiable claims of science:

1. There is a reality
2. There is something to understand about reality
3. Reason is reliable for understanding about reality
4. The reality is consistent
5. The perceived reality is reliable for making judgements about the reality itself
6. Mathematical models combined with the scientific method is the way to describe the reality
7. There is energy, there is force, there is mass, ...

This is how I see it.

If you disbelieve even one of those claims, then why do you bother to post here at all?
If there is no (shared amongs us all) reality, why do bother to try to interact with others outside of your own consciousness?
If reality isnt consistent, why do you even bother to switch on your PC? Why do you hit the "reply" field on a screen using a keyboard?
If reason is not reliable for understanding reality, why are you trying to use reason to convince us of the opposite?
If reality is neither shared nor consistent nor is there something to understand about reality, why do you bother to type "This is how I see it."?
If there is no energy, force or mass, why are you bothering to do all those things i mentioned above? Why do you bother to have breakfast when you get up then (i presume you do, but please correct me if i am wrong)?

If all of this is true: Why should we even bother the least about the masturbatory nonsense you are posting?

P.S.: If you feel offended that someone just called out your efforts as "masturbatory nonsense", then please remember your objections to points 1-4, 1 in particular. Laugh out load

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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11-09-2017, 05:59 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
I don't agree that you need to make any of those assumptions for science to work. The ones that are actually relevant to science working are demonstrated by the results.

If it turns out reality is not what it seems, the results still work. As with my shadow analogy, we only need to worry about the shadow and if we can accurately model it. If we couldn't, science would not offer any meaningful results. Clearly this is not the case, since it powers almost all aspects of our society.

What if there is no reality? It doesn't matter. The shadow is still there, and works according to our models. What if there's no shadow and I'm insane/asleep/non-existent? Well... you can't lose what you never had to begin with.

Whatever is going on, science works within it. That's all that really matters. If someone thinks otherwise, I expect they don't understand science and think it's somehow based on dogma or authority rather than self-correction.

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11-09-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The shadow is still there, and works according to our models.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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11-09-2017, 06:48 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  What if there's no shadow and I'm insane/asleep/non-existent? Well... you can't lose what you never had to begin with.
I think your points are interesting.

You can't lose anything, but what if, in your analogy, we would wake up when we realize there were no shadows to begin with?

I assume you mean this by the shadow analogy:
Quote:I used the analogy that we're only ever looking at a shadow of reality, and can never look directly at it. A big part of science is about predicting how that shadow will behave in the future. We can do this very successfully, without having to know anything about the thing that is making the shadow.
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11-09-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 05:51 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  If you disbelieve even one of those claims, then why do you bother to post here at all?
If there is no (shared amongs us all) reality, why do bother to try to interact with others outside of your own consciousness?
If reality isnt consistent, why do you even bother to switch on your PC? Why do you hit the "reply" field on a screen using a keyboard?
If reason is not reliable for understanding reality, why are you trying to use reason to convince us of the opposite?
If reality is neither shared nor consistent nor is there something to understand about reality, why do you bother to type "This is how I see it."?
If there is no energy, force or mass, why are you bothering to do all those things i mentioned above? Why do you bother to have breakfast when you get up then (i presume you do, but please correct me if i am wrong)?

If all of this is true: [b]Why should we even bother the least about the masturbatory nonsense you are posting?[/b]

P.S.: If you feel offended that someone just called out your efforts as "masturbatory nonsense", then please remember your objections to points 1-4, 1 in particular. Laugh out load

All your questions begin with a "why". You are making an unfalsifiable assumption that there needs to be a reason, for example for the things that I'm doing. If you drop that assumption, all those questions will be meaningless, I think.
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