Intercessory prayer is pointless
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-09-2017, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 07:10 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 05:59 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't agree that you need to make any of those assumptions for science to work. The ones that are actually relevant to science working are demonstrated by the results.

If it turns out reality is not what it seems, the results still work. As with my shadow analogy, we only need to worry about the shadow and if we can accurately model it. If we couldn't, science would not offer any meaningful results. Clearly this is not the case, since it powers almost all aspects of our society.

What if there is no reality? It doesn't matter. The shadow is still there, and works according to our models. What if there's no shadow and I'm insane/asleep/non-existent? Well... you can't lose what you never had to begin with.

Whatever is going on, science works within it. That's all that really matters. If someone thinks otherwise, I expect they don't understand science and think it's somehow based on dogma or authority rather than self-correction.

Also, I really like how you perceive science, but I don't think this is how science is perceived by most scientists. Many of the scientists that I have encountered have declared that they are really proud that they are investigating "the reality". If you take the claimed relationship of science with a supposed reality, nothing will remain of it, it's not even a consistent mathematical system, since it's inconsistent (e.g. relativity and quantum mechanics)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-09-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 06:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(11-09-2017 05:51 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  If you disbelieve even one of those claims, then why do you bother to post here at all?
If there is no (shared amongs us all) reality, why do bother to try to interact with others outside of your own consciousness?
If reality isnt consistent, why do you even bother to switch on your PC? Why do you hit the "reply" field on a screen using a keyboard?
If reason is not reliable for understanding reality, why are you trying to use reason to convince us of the opposite?
If reality is neither shared nor consistent nor is there something to understand about reality, why do you bother to type "This is how I see it."?
If there is no energy, force or mass, why are you bothering to do all those things i mentioned above? Why do you bother to have breakfast when you get up then (i presume you do, but please correct me if i am wrong)?

If all of this is true: [b]Why should we even bother the least about the masturbatory nonsense you are posting?[/b]

P.S.: If you feel offended that someone just called out your efforts as "masturbatory nonsense", then please remember your objections to points 1-4, 1 in particular. Laugh out load

All your questions begin with a "why". You are making an unfalsifiable assumption that there needs to be a reason, for example for the things that I'm doing. If you drop that assumption, all those questions will be meaningless, I think.


The only assumption i am making is that you maybe are an armchair wanker. A pretty dishonest one to be honest, considering your entirely evasive reply. But probably i am wrong, and we both dont exist. Who knows!?
I have asked you several questions. It is noted that you didnt bother to comment any of them, but rather attack me instead. You arent even able to claim belief or disbelief in reality. Why should anyone bother to take you serious?

Why did you even reply to my post if reality cant be falsified? Pretty stupid of you to respond to someone who is not even real. Do you believe in reality? If so, do you believe in other "unfalisifiable claims"? do you not beleive in reality? Why bother to interact with me or have breakfast?
Do.you.believe.reality.exists? Its a simple yes or no quesiton

I am not assuming that there is a reaons for the things you do. I was asking questions, and you didnt bother to answer them. You easily could have said "There is no reason for the things i am doing, therefore your (Deesse) question makes no sense". But no, you are a dishonest fucker who likes to keep his options, that why you kept being ambiguous about this. I noted this too.
Do you have a reason for the things that you are doing. Its a simple yes/no question?

Are you able and willing to actually engage in a productive conversation, or are you going to evade until ...reality becomes real? Even this is a simple yes or no question.

If you arent able to honestly (and thus respectfully interact) on a forum and if you have no reasons for the things you do then kindly fuck off and spray your verbal ejaculate on some other peoples carpet.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deesse23's post
11-09-2017, 08:48 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 12:43 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 07:21 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(11-09-2017 06:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  All your questions begin with a "why". You are making an unfalsifiable assumption that there needs to be a reason, for example for the things that I'm doing. If you drop that assumption, all those questions will be meaningless, I think.


The only assumption i am making is that you maybe are an armchair wanker. A pretty dishonest one to be honest, considering your entirely evasive reply. But probably i am wrong, and we both dont exist. Who knows!?
I have asked you several questions. It is noted that you didnt bother to comment any of them, but rather attack me instead. You arent even able to claim belief or disbelief in reality. Why should anyone bother to take you serious?

Why did you even reply to my post if reality cant be falsified? Pretty stupid of you to respond to someone who is not even real. Do you believe in reality? If so, do you believe in other "unfalisifiable claims"? do you not beleive in reality? Why bother to interact with me or have breakfast?
Do.you.believe.reality.exists? Its a simple yes or no quesiton

I am not assuming that there is a reaons for the things you do. I was asking questions, and you didnt bother to answer them. You easily could have said "There is no reason for the things i am doing, therefore your (Deesse) question makes no sense". But no, you are a dishonest fucker who likes to keep his options, that why you kept being ambiguous about this. I noted this too.
Do you have a reason for the things that you are doing. Its a simple yes/no question?

Are you able and willing to actually engage in a productive conversation, or are you going to evade until ...reality becomes real? Even this is a simple yes or no question.

If you arent able to honestly (and thus respectfully interact) on a forum and if you have no reasons for the things you do then kindly fuck off and spray your verbal ejaculate on some other peoples carpet.

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. I didn't have any intention to attack you, I'm sorry if that's how it looked.

I perceived your questions as rhetorical questions to demonstrate to me that those assumptions are necessary, I didn't really think that you care about the answer of any of those questions, did you really meant to know my answer for any of those questions? if yes, I'd gladly answer those.

Quote:Do.you.believe.reality.exists? Its a simple yes or no quesiton
The thing is, I do not know what reality means. So I'm not sure what answer should I give. I honestly think that any answer would not be accurate.

Quote:Do you have a reason for the things that you are doing. Its a simple yes/no question?
What I'm doing right now is typing the answer to your question, I'm consciously thinking for a reason, asking my self "why are you doing this?" I honestly fail to find one. If you mean in general, I think I sometimes have reasons, sometimes not.

Quote:Are you able and willing to actually engage in a productive conversation, or are you going to evade until ...reality becomes real?
I actually get discouraged that I can engage in a good conversation here when you guys attack me, but, yes I'm willing, I think. I'd really like to be able to learn and develop my understanding, and also help others doing the same in these conversations.

Quote:on a forum and if you have no reasons for the things you do then kindly fuck off and spray your verbal ejaculate on some other peoples carpet.
I actually thought of stopping posting here a few times, but I guess I'm still not convinced that I'm absolutely unable to be engaged in a productive conversation here. So give me some more time, maybe I can get the grip of it. I have already managed to get involved in a conversation about ethics, and my participation was considered productive by some members.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nosferatu323's post
11-09-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(08-09-2017 08:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 12:13 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What decisions do you make informed by religion that are not also informed by observation? If it's not something that is based in observation, it's nonfalsifiable.
When I'm helping the poor, I try to use observation to figure out whether the poor really needs my help or not. So my hypothesis that X is poor is falsifiable, only after my thesis is reasonably proven I will help. The basis of helping the poor is the commandment of my God and is nonfalsifiable, but I take advantage of falsifiability in doing it.

There are secular reasons for helping the poor, as well. This wasn't what I was getting at when I mentioned not being used for making "meaningful decisions".


(08-09-2017 08:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:My point is that it has no apparent bearing on reality
I don't think that's true. As a theist I see all that there is as a manifestation of my God. How is it not "apparent bearing on reality"?

That's all presuppositional. You have to presuppose a god before you can start presupposing "all that there is" somehow points to your god.

If I presupposed leprechauns, and then assume everything somehow points to leprechauns, how does that aid me in making meaningful decisions?


(08-09-2017 08:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:, and any claim to the contrary is nonfalsifiable
Of course my God is nonfalsifiable, a falsifiable God is not a God. Although science heavily relies on falsifiability, I don't think all that science says is falsifiable. Such as:
- There is a reality
- There is something to understand about reality (this is highly questionable for me)
- Reason is reliable for understanding about reality
- The reality is consistent
- The perceived reality is reliable for making judgements about the reality itself
- Mathematical models can be used to describe the reality
- There is energy, there is force, there is mass, ...

I have no idea where you're getting "a falsifiable god is not a god" from. If you're just adding things to the definition of "god" to suit your argument, it's a No True Scotsman.

As for your list about science not being falsifiable, you're getting into the realm of reasonable doubt. Yes, we live in a world where it's impossible to prove anything 100% That doesn't stop us from making meaningful inferences and predictable decisions all the time. Every theist I've talked to who isn't actively doubting concepts of knowledge and evidence when its convenient will absolutely reality seriously the other 99% of the time. They look both ways at crosswalks and buckle their seat belts, despite "science not really being falsifiable". It's one of those "put your money where your mouth is" scenarios. This argument lasts only so long to try to silence the skeptic, and is then promptly put on the shelf when reality ensues and its time to start making real decisions.

[Image: 20100522.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RobbyPants's post
11-09-2017, 09:19 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 09:23 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
Quote:Do.you.believe.reality.exists? Its a simple yes or no quesiton
Quote:The thing is, I do not know what reality means. So I'm not sure what answer should I give. I honestly think that any answer would not be accurate.
I didnt ask you about your opinion about reality. I asked if you believe that a reality exists.
How about "yes" or "no"?

To be honest, i dont have more time to waste on you.

You are a troll, but why didnt you say so? Oops, sorry, another "why" question.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-09-2017, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 11:00 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 01:35 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 08:05 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  They think they are God.

I don't think Sufis claim "I'm God", do they? As far as I know they use the third pronoun ("hu" in Arabic) to refer to God. Their motto of "There is no he but he" is a better representative of Sufis than "I'm God", I think.

"Mansur al-Hallaj (c. 858 – 26 March 922) was a Persian mystic, poet and teacher of Sufism. He is most famous for his saying: 'I am the Truth' (Ana 'l-Ḥaqq), which many saw as a claim to divinity, while others interpreted it as an instance of mystical annihilation of the ego which allows God to speak through the individual. Al-Hallaj gained a wide following as a preacher before he became implicated in power struggles of the Abbasid court and was executed after a long period of confinement on religious and political charges. Although most of his Sufi contemporaries disapproved of his actions, Hallaj later became a major figure in the Sufi tradition."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Al-Hallaj

The repetition of "Hu" is certainly an exercise for students (dervishes). Whether masters (Sufis) use it is questionable.

The Sufis claim God is the only real existence. That's just about as good as saying they are God too, from my perspective.

(11-09-2017 08:48 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I actually thought of stopping posting here a few times, but I guess I'm still not convinced that I'm absolutely unable to be engaged in a productive conversation here. So give me some more time, maybe I can get the grip of it. I already managed to get involved in a conversation about ethics which were considered productive by some members.

I see you as someone who is trying at least, not as a troll. But you are so far off the grid for most atheists that it's not surprising they can't understand where you're coming from.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thoreauvian's post
11-09-2017, 11:24 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 11:44 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 07:01 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If you take the claimed relationship of science with a supposed reality, nothing will remain of it, it's not even a consistent mathematical system, since it's inconsistent (e.g. relativity and quantum mechanics).

Both general relativity and quantum mechanics are models of reality which generate highly accurate predictions, so they have very definite relationships with realities within their own domains. Their inconsistencies are a major project for science, which even Einstein struggled with and failed to bridge. It's just that we can't yet fit everything into the same picture because our camera isn't good enough to take such a wide shot yet.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-09-2017, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2017 12:02 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(09-09-2017 09:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As I see it, science clearly claims to know the answer, as I mentioned before, here is a list of unfalsifiable claims of science for answering the fundamental questions and a comparison with religions:

1. There is a reality : the deity
2. There is something to understand about reality : aspects or attributes of the said deity
3. Reason is reliable for understanding about reality : religions usually involve both heart and reason, science chooses reason to go with, which enables it to utilize the scientific method

What you miss about science, I think, is that the history of science progressed from religious assumptions to materialistic assumptions. So for instance, most scientists no longer assume reality is a conscious, willful being. Science therefore can't go back to being religious, or be combined with religion or mysticism, because it already abandoned certain assumptions as unnecessary. Our "hearts," it turns out, were and are misleading. Thus the methodology problem.

For a summary of scientific studies showing how intuitions are unreliable, see:
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Gorilla...le+gorilla
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thoreauvian's post
11-09-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
If you can think of a way to improve the scientific method, go ahead. If not, you're wanking.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
11-09-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 11:58 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  For a summary of scientific studies showing how intuitions are unreliable, see:

Monty Hall Problem fucks with a lot of people's intuitions too.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: