Intercessory prayer is pointless
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12-09-2017, 07:33 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 07:48 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(11-09-2017 11:19 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm an absurdist, and a pragmatist.

Absurdism is the only practical response to existential nihilism. Yes

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12-09-2017, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 08:25 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(12-09-2017 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-09-2017 11:19 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm an absurdist, and a pragmatist.

Absurdism is the only practical response to existential nihilism. Yes

Existential nihilism makes no sense to me.

Saying "life is meaningless" is simply incorrect. Human interests create meanings, and not just from pure subjectivities but from objective facts.

So to be accurate, the saying should be changed to "life has no absolute meaning, but life has more than enough relative meanings for anyone."

Relative meanings justify pragmatism.
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12-09-2017, 08:29 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 08:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(12-09-2017 08:17 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Absurdism is the only practical response to existential nihilism. Yes

I disagree. Saying "life is meaningless" is simply incorrect. Humans create meanings. So to be accurate, the saying should be changed to "life has no absolute meaning, but more than enough relative meanings for anyone." Relative meanings justify pragmatism.

But that's not what the nihilists say. Well maybe that's what Schopenhauer said. But there is a reason Nietzsche is considered the father of nihilism and not Schopenhauer. It's because Nietszche took Schopenhauer's pessimistic negation and responded to it in the very manner you suggest.

"The common thread in the literature of the existentialists is coping with the emotional anguish arising from our confrontation with nothingness, and they expended great energy responding to the question of whether surviving it was possible. Their answer was a qualified "Yes," advocating a formula of passionate commitment and impassive stoicism." — Alan Pratt

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12-09-2017, 09:05 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(12-09-2017 08:17 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Absurdism is the only practical response to existential nihilism. Yes

Existential nihilism makes no sense to me.

Saying "life is meaningless" is simply incorrect. Human interests create meanings, and not just from pure subjectivities but from objective facts.

So to be accurate, the saying should be changed to "life has no absolute meaning, but life has more than enough relative meanings for anyone."

Relative meanings justify pragmatism.
You said something doesn't make sense because... then defined it exactly as it is by simply saying what you think is accurate.

I think you mean simply Nihilism in the criticism part. Existential nihilism is what you defined... which Is that life has no inerrant meaning but our human existence is doomed by our inner creating of meaning. The meaning comes from consiousness and the being of humanity and not something prior.

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12-09-2017, 11:28 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(05-09-2017 12:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 06:30 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Again...based on what? You have no basis for concluding that uncommon patterns are fabrications and consistent patterns are not. That's not how we determine accuracy or truth.

That resolves NOTHING, you are arbitrarily rejecting things with no clear basis for doing so.

1. I assumed it is possible that the religions contain the truth as they claim
2. I concluded that if this is the case, all must include this truth
3. I inspected the sources and figured out what is common in all of them, assuming the uncommon parts were fabrications
4. The commonality was consistent
5. Therefore, 1 was still a possibility for me

I guess you are saying that there is no reason to assume it is possible that there is some truth in a text that claims to have the truth. I think your objection is right.

(04-09-2017 06:30 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I mean lets replace religion with the extended star wars universe
The obvious difference between sacred texts and Star Wars is that they claim to have the truth, Star Wars doesn't.

So fucking what? Lots of people lie. Hell I beet you lie every day. I'm quite sure you claim things that you know aren't true just to save face. Often. Oh this ancient book claims to be true. Therefor it is! Wait.... how many other ancient books claimed the same thing? You seemed to fail to see the point of what I was saying to begin with. Try thinking, a little thought would go a long way dude.

(this response was delayed because I've not turned on my computer since the last time I responded, which given the situation I honestly have no idea how long that has been. It's too easy to loose track of time when you live in extreme isolation.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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12-09-2017, 11:32 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(12-09-2017 08:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 08:17 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I disagree. Saying "life is meaningless" is simply incorrect. Humans create meanings. So to be accurate, the saying should be changed to "life has no absolute meaning, but more than enough relative meanings for anyone." Relative meanings justify pragmatism.

But that's not what the nihilists say. Well maybe that's what Schopenhauer said. But there is a reason Nietzsche is considered the father of nihilism and not Schopenhauer. It's because Nietszche took Schopenhauer's pessimistic negation and responded to it in the very manner you suggest.

"The common thread in the literature of the existentialists is coping with the emotional anguish arising from our confrontation with nothingness, and they expended great energy responding to the question of whether surviving it was possible. Their answer was a qualified "Yes," advocating a formula of passionate commitment and impassive stoicism." — Alan Pratt

I kinda agree with you, however I think it would be most accurate to say something along the lines of, "There is no intrinsic meaning to the universe, therefor the universe is meaningless. However we as a thinking species have developed the ability to give meaning to the universe." I would content that everyone knows somewhere deep down inside that life is meaningless (on an intrinsic level), I mean who here honestly thinks the gravel in their driveway gives a flying fuck about them? Or the sun? (well ok some people used to worship the sun, they now know better. One day we'll say some people used to worship the god of the bible, they now know better). The point is, there's no meaning in the universe or your life until you give it meaning. And I'm pretty sure that's the path Nihilism follows. Accepting that there is by default no meaning is just the starting point. If you end your journey there then.... That's unfortunate, shoulda tried harder.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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13-09-2017, 04:22 AM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2017 04:58 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(12-09-2017 09:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You said something doesn't make sense because... then defined it exactly as it is by simply saying what you think is accurate.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to redefine existential nihilism. I was trying to state what made sense to me. I think there are inherent, objective meanings which are relative to our physical circumstances, and not just subjective. So the world is not inherently meaningless. Human are part of the world, not separate from it.
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13-09-2017, 08:36 AM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2017 08:41 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
To me, nihilism is just the observation that "meaning" requires a subjective evaluation. Any meaning something has will always be "meaning to...". It's not a well-defined, inherent property of reality that can be measured. This is not saying nothing has any meaning. It's just incorrect, in my opinion, to refer to meaning as objective. It's a contradiction of language. You can't tell someone what something means to them.

To make that it that way, we'd have to define "meaning(X) = {Yes if X is [some subset of life forms]; No otherwise}.

I don't see what the point of that is, and it would be redefining a word just to thwart nihilism, and just among the group of people who accept that definition.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-09-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(13-09-2017 08:36 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  To me, nihilism is just the observation that "meaning" requires a subjective evaluation.

I am maintaining that reality has inherent relative meanings regardless of subjective evaluations. Like for instance, jumping out of an airplane without a parachute means you will likely die, whether you realize you forgot your parachute or not. (Or "Don't jump out of an airplane without a parachute unless you want to die.") Whether you want to die or not would be subjective, but is an additional level of subjective meaning on top of the objective but relative circumstances. I say this is relative because it depends on how high up the airplane is, whether you have a hang glider or not, and so on.

Perhaps you will consider this an equivocation of the word "meaning", but the original nihilistic statement "life is meaningless" has been over-generalized in my opinion. The world is chock full of relative meanings.

However, if you want to define "meaning" as a communicated message with an author's intention behind it -- well, that is certainly theistic.
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13-09-2017, 04:34 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
God decides who will be the elect and who will not. God, the great potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. Not according to your acys, but to God's unsearchable and incomprehensible whimsy.

Does it get more nihilistic and meaningless than Christian theology? When I hear some Christian bleating on about atheism and no meaning in life with atheism, I immediately think of Romans 9. Romans 9, there is no more nihilistic and savage philosophy on Earth than the theology in this chapter of the New Testament.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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