Intercessory prayer is pointless
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01-09-2017, 08:38 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:01 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 04:22 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Your God concept is not worthy of worship. This attempt at apologetics is reality-denying in the worst sense, because it dehumanizes people by belittling their very real suffering.

There is no honor or honesty in "surrendering" to an evil God.

You are assuming the suffering is real, yet, as I said, this world is described as unreal in Judeo-Christian religions as I understand them. I think if you want to make a valid judgement about whether the Judeo-Christian God is evil or not, you should make your judgement within the context of those religions.

You are not accepting their premise that this world is unreal, yet you are making a judgement about their God concept being evil, that's inconsistent, I think.

You simply don't understand "Judo-Christianity". Facepalm

The effects of this life have eternal consequences in their "Judo-Christian" beliefs.

That's pretty damn real.

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-09-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 07:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think because suicide is the ultimate ingratitude towards the great gift of life, which is the means for a believer to strive towards his God within the context of Judeo-Christian religions.

But would it be a sin though, even in your view of 'surrendering oneself'? Because sin is remarkably similar in how we commit a crime in the American legal system really. Needing both the act and the intent. And most people who unfortunately end up taking their own lives would have a compromised intent as they're not in a good state mentally, or have a physical issue which can lead to a compromised mental state.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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01-09-2017, 09:43 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2017 09:47 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:11 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I am making the judgment that their God concept is evil exactly because they say the actual world is unreal and their imaginary world is the real one -- if in fact that is what they are saying at all.

I personally think the idea is really just your apologetics, which you are projecting on Jews and Christians, to try to rationalize a God concept which wasn't properly thought through to begin with. I would very much like to see you try to justify it by referencing the verses you think support it. The Bible may say God and the next life are more important than this world, but where does it say this world is unreal?

You are somehow right I guess, I didn't have any clear references in my mind when I said that. I was projecting my understanding that the reality of eternity and eternal life would mean the temporal life is unreal.

But I actually checked the holy books following your demand, I found some relevant references I think:

You carry them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which grows up. (Psalm 90:5)

This life is described as being sleep and death is described as a flood to wake up those who are asleep.

I also found a reference in the Qur'an:

And this worldly life is nothing but pastime and game; indeed the abode of the Hereafter – that is indeed the true life; if only they knew. (29:64)

In general the after life is sometimes referred to as awakening in these religions, I think.

The idea of "this life is a dream" is also repeated and asserted all through Vedic scriptures and Hindu traditions. Maya, the illusion of life brought by Brahma, and death, the cessation of illusion brought by Shiva.

Thanks for bringing this up anyway, this is as much as I can support my understanding of these religions with explicit references at the moment. If you are actually interested in this topic, I'd be glad to put some more effort, maybe I can come up with better results.
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01-09-2017, 09:52 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 04:42 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 01:59 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think your argument holds if we presume there is actually a problem. Considering that Judo-Christian religions emphasis on the unreality of this world and its pain and pleasure, I think it's reasonable to assume that the flood is not a real problem within the context of Judo-Christian religions.

If one loses his family in a seemingly real dream, he might be grateful about the bad dream after waking up, no matter how bad it was, it has made him realize how important his family is for him.

So I think intercessory prayer within Judo-Christian religions can be understood as a means of helping believers to surrender, yet the threat is not real, it's merely a show to help them grow in terms of surrendering to their God.

Dodgy

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01-09-2017, 09:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2017 09:58 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:38 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You simply don't understand "Judo-Christianity". Facepalm

The effects of this life have eternal consequences in their "Judo-Christian" beliefs.

That's pretty damn real.
Sorry for the mis-spelling.

I think I understand your point. A dream can transform a man in his real life, but it doesn't mean the dream is real. It's "part of" the reality of course, but it's not real in itself. Similarly, one could say that this life has real consequences, but its experiences, pain and pleasure are not real.

Disclaimer: Please note that I'm not claiming any of what I'm saying is true and real, I just think this is a reasonable interpretation of holy books and I also think it's a consistent understanding.
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01-09-2017, 09:57 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 08:01 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are assuming the suffering is real, yet, as I said, this world is described as unreal in Judeo-Christian religions as I understand them. I think if you want to make a valid judgement about whether the Judeo-Christian God is evil or not, you should make your judgement within the context of those religions.

You are not accepting their premise that this world is unreal, yet you are making a judgement about their God concept being evil, that's inconsistent, I think.




I thought you mean my mis-spelling. Why do you think that term is inappropriate? What about "Abrahamic Religions"?
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01-09-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:48 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 07:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think because suicide is the ultimate ingratitude towards the great gift of life, which is the means for a believer to strive towards his God within the context of Judeo-Christian religions.

But would it be a sin though, even in your view of 'surrendering oneself'? Because sin is remarkably similar in how we commit a crime in the American legal system really. Needing both the act and the intent. And most people who unfortunately end up taking their own lives would have a compromised intent as they're not in a good state mentally, or have a physical issue which can lead to a compromised mental state.

My understanding is also that the "intent" is essential for something to be considered sin in these religions. If any act is beyond the conscious control of the individual for whatever reason, I think it wouldn't be considered as a sin within the context of these religions. So if someone is pushed beyond his/her limits to choose between life and death, I think "sin" would be irrelevant.

I understand that this might not be the common understanding of the followers of these religions. I'm merely expressing my personal understanding.
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01-09-2017, 10:37 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 08:01 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are not accepting their premise that this world is unreal, yet you are making a judgement about their God concept being evil, that's inconsistent, I think.

I accept their premise that this world is unreal, and I make the judgement that their God would consider their God concept evil, based on their own sacred texts, which few of them have read and even fewer comprehend.

#sigh
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01-09-2017, 10:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2017 11:07 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 10:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I accept their premise that this world is unreal, and I make the judgement that their God would consider their God concept evil, based on their own sacred texts, which few of them have read and even fewer comprehend.

It seems you are claiming that you comprehend the sacred texts. How can you justify it? Considering that the sacred texts are full of ambiguous, allegorical, metaphorical and poetic descriptions.

I claimed that my understanding is a possible interpretation to resolve the inconsistency in the OP. I think I never claimed this is "the only true understanding", and if you think I did, I'm abandoning that claim here and I apologize for making such a claim. But you seem to be claiming that your understanding is the true one, I guess.

If you are merely claiming that there is a possible interpretation that supports an evil God, I accept your claim.
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01-09-2017, 11:21 PM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(01-09-2017 10:58 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 10:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I accept their premise that this world is unreal, and I make the judgement that their God would consider their God concept evil, based on their own sacred texts, which few of them have read and even fewer comprehend.

It seems you are claiming that you comprehend the sacred texts. How can you justify it? Considering that the sacred texts are full of ambiguous, allegorical, metaphorical and poetic descriptions.

The sacred texts are allusive and metaphorical but there is nothing ambiguous about them. Don't matter which sacred text we're talking about, they're all just different flavors of the principle of reciprocity - Don't Be A Dick. That's it, just don't be a dick. That's the only commandment. Are you a dick, nosferatu323? You seem like you might be a dick.

#sigh
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