Intercessory prayer is pointless
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02-09-2017, 12:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 01:04 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 12:14 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 12:01 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  They are still "Sons of God", their divinity is given to them, it's not something they posses merely by virtue of their existence, like the Father.

Within the context of Christianity, you are not God, you can be. That's what makes you a "Son" and not the "Father". That's how I understand the premise of Christianity about the divinity of Man.

My understanding of the Trinity is that your statement contradicts it. That's how I understand the premise of the Trinity. Are you sure you know what Christianity entails? Were you properly trained or are you just trying to make this shit up as you go along? I'll play either way. Just wanna know how to shift my posture.
I partially know how Trinity is being presented in mainstream Christianity. But I think the Bible specifically the Old Testament strongly contradicts the mainstream conception of Trinity. Also Jesus obviously expresses his utter need and dependance to the father all through the Bible.

You are right that what I say contradicts the belief that "Jesus is God himself in flesh", I admit that I cannot resolve that inconsistency within Christianity at the moment.
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02-09-2017, 01:04 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 01:10 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Note: I think the characters in sacred texts should not be understood as real persons, everything should be understood as metaphors, I think. All the characters denote something that reside in all of us, including Adam.

“All religions are true but none are literal.” - Joseph Campbell

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble." - ditto

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The apple from the tree of knowledge denotes our desire to seek knowledge of truth by relying on our own existence. A natural consequence of this desire is the independent BUT limited existence, ...

Consider ... I wanna come back to this. I was trained in this metaphor many times, I wanna consider it a bit more again, because well here it is again, lo these many decades later. Smile

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... the limitation is a logical necessity for multiple existences to appear, an unlimited existence cannot be two, it's always one. Attaining this individual, independent BUT limited existence is described as the fall of Man and the cause of his agony.

That's all gibberish. I hope you realize that is all gibberish.

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The Man chooses to attain this individual existence and seek the truth for himself, yet suffering is all that he gains,

Yes, that's the price we pay to know good from evil, it's a prerequisite to qualify as Gods. A necessary, but clearly not sufficient condition. Go on.

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  God sends guides to tell him that he is in the wrong path, those who obey the command and return to the Father and give up their quest of knowledge, prosperity and truth and surrender their limited existence to him, abide in the unlimited existence of the father, becoming a Son. This is described as Heaven.

Again, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the Trinity as understood by the major sects of Christianity. What sect do you claim to represent?

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Some choose to keep their independent but limited existence, and continue their search for prosperity and knowledge. Those will never join the father, eternally seeking what they can only attain by returning to the father. But they prefer to remain individual. This is described as Hell.

Again, you appear to have limited understanding of the basic precepts of Christianity. We don't have to be joined with the Father, we are conjoined. Borg-like and shit.

#sigh
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02-09-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 12:45 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are right that what I say contradicts the belief that "Jesus is God himself in flesh", I admit that I cannot resolve that inconsistency within Christianity at the moment.

Y'all 'ave had 200o years, how long we gotta wait till it gets sorted?Tongue

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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02-09-2017, 01:14 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 01:22 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 12:45 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are right that what I say contradicts the belief that "Jesus is God himself in flesh", I admit that I cannot resolve that inconsistency within Christianity at the moment.

There is no inconsistency to be resolved. You are creating an inconsistency which does not exist within Christianity on that particular point. Many Christians are just unwilling to accept the responsibility that goes with it. .... Or more likely, just fail to appreciate the commitment.

#sigh
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02-09-2017, 01:20 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:04 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Note: I think the characters in sacred texts should not be understood as real persons, everything should be understood as metaphors, I think. All the characters denote something that reside in all of us, including Adam.

“All religions are true but none are literal.” - Joseph Campbell

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble." - ditto

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The apple from the tree of knowledge denotes our desire to seek knowledge of truth by relying on our own existence. A natural consequence of this desire is the independent BUT limited existence, ...

Consider ... I wanna come back to this. I was trained in this metaphor many times, I wanna consider it a bit more again, because well here it is again, lo these many decades later. Smile

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... the limitation is a logical necessity for multiple existences to appear, an unlimited existence cannot be two, it's always one. Attaining this individual, independent BUT limited existence is described as the fall of Man and the cause of his agony.

That's all gibberish. I hope you realize that is all gibberish.

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The Man chooses to attain this individual existence and seek the truth for himself, yet suffering is all that he gains,

Yes, that's the price we pay to know good from evil, it's a prerequisite to qualify as Gods. A necessary, but clearly not sufficient condition. Go on.

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  God sends guides to tell him that he is in the wrong path, those who obey the command and return to the Father and give up their quest of knowledge, prosperity and truth and surrender their limited existence to him, abide in the unlimited existence of the father, becoming a Son. This is described as Heaven.

Again, what you are saying is in direct contradiction of the Trinity as understood by the major sects of Christianity. What sect do you claim to represent?

(02-09-2017 12:38 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Some choose to keep their independent but limited existence, and continue their search for prosperity and knowledge. Those will never join the father, eternally seeking what they can only attain by returning to the father. But they prefer to remain individual. This is described as Hell.

Again, you appear to have limited understanding of the basic precepts of Christianity. We don't have to be joined with the Father, we are conjoined. Borg-like and shit.

I'm not claiming to represent any sects. That's merely my understanding of reading sacred texts (not only Christian texts), and also some interpretations.

Quote:Those will never join the father, eternally seeking what they can only attain by returning to the father. But they prefer to remain individual. This is described as Hell.
True, those who seek the individual self never realize this. As an illusion of snake never lets the knowledge of rope arise, those who choose to keep the illusion of an individual self, will never realize the oneness with the Father.

I know that my understanding may not fit well with what Christianity teaches in general and it might contradict some important aspects of it. That's all I have to offer I guess, not claiming it's of any value.
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02-09-2017, 01:24 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:14 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 12:45 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are right that what I say contradicts the belief that "Jesus is God himself in flesh", I admit that I cannot resolve that inconsistency within Christianity at the moment.

There is no inconsistency to be resolved. You are creating an inconsistency which does not exist within Christianity on that particular point. Many Christians are just unwilling to accept the responsibility that goes with it.

That's great of you don't see any inconsistency here, please explain. If Jesus in flesh is God himself, why he constantly expresses his need and dependence to God?
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02-09-2017, 01:34 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:11 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 12:45 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You are right that what I say contradicts the belief that "Jesus is God himself in flesh", I admit that I cannot resolve that inconsistency within Christianity at the moment.

Y'all 'ave had 200o years, how long we gotta wait till it gets sorted?Tongue

I learned about all religions as much as I could and saw very similar patterns in major religions, I assumed if there is any truth in religions, the common patterns must be genuine and uncommon patterns must be fabrications. I think the idea that God can be a Man in flesh is among those fabrications and should be dismissed. This is how it gets sorted, I suppose.
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02-09-2017, 01:38 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 01:54 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:20 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I know that my understanding may not fit well with what Christianity teaches in general and it might contradict some important aspects of it. That's all I have to offer I guess, not claiming it's of any value.

That's good! That's precisely what's of value. Your own independently developed metaphysics and your expression of it is precisely the thing of most value. Just don't misattribute your sentiments to someone else unless you can support it.

#sigh
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02-09-2017, 01:40 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 01:44 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:34 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think the idea that God can be a Man in flesh is among those fabrications and should be dismissed.

You have a piss poor opinion of the powers of your god. You have fake god. Weak god. No god-fu. What is it that makes you think God cannot manifest in Man? It's kind of the whole point of Christianity.

#sigh
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02-09-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
(02-09-2017 01:40 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 01:34 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think the idea that God can be a Man in flesh is among those fabrications and should be dismissed.

You have a piss poor opinion of the powers of your god. You have fake god. Weak god. No god-fu. What is it that makes you think God cannot manifest itself in Man? It's kind of the whole point of Christianity.

I agree. But one must distinguish X and the manifestation of X. They are not the same, are they?
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