Interesting conversation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-01-2015, 10:40 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
(08-01-2015 10:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-01-2015 09:26 PM)Whimsymum Wrote:  Dead bug vs. dead people... kids get the dead part, it's the part where a kid could be dead thats difficult. At some point they're going to relate that to themselves.
Does something different happen to people as opposed to bugs when they die?

No, the process is the same BUT -- the moment that you realize it can happen to you can affect children differently.

To the OP- how did the death of children topic come up in the first place? I would tend to lean toward the stance that Whimsy is hinting at. Were you sharing bible horror stories for shock value? checking out a dead bug? dealing with the death of someone you know? intentionally trying to scare him? Just giving info knowing it will come back to your wife?

I don't think you should with hold the info, but age appropriate and explained fully, sharing to instill fear of religion isnt any better than the bible itself.

I am married to a believer too, I try to save the horror stories for when it applies to something in our life.

I guess I need more context on how you got to that point, kwim?


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2015, 01:19 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(08-01-2015 10:40 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I don't think you should with hold the info, but age appropriate and explained fully,
1. I don't think kids of the age of 6 are to be wrapped in cotton wool. Kids are smart, they can understand heaps.

2. How the hell can passages like this in the bible be explained fully?
They defy explanation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2015, 05:54 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
My wife has been pretty good with the whole thing as my eight year old has followed me in to the abyss. It can be a bit cringeworthy however hearing her version of some of the discussions we have had coming out with her peers, though Wink
A few days ago we were visiting my parents while they had guests over from the church. This was a homeschooling very intensely christian family. I didn't hear the whole conversation but among the snippets I did pick up were Miss 8: "I don't believe there was a real Jesus" Other Kids:"But if you don't believe that you'll go to hell" Miss 8: "Well, I think there was probably a person called Jesus but that he lied about his superpowers". Near enough I suppose... but I'm not sure whether my kids will be as welcome over at their house as before that conversation.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
09-01-2015, 06:09 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(09-01-2015 01:19 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-01-2015 10:40 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I don't think you should with hold the info, but age appropriate and explained fully,
1. I don't think kids of the age of 6 are to be wrapped in cotton wool. Kids are smart, they can understand heaps.

2. How the hell can passages like this in the bible be explained fully?
They defy explanation.

I'm am trying to stay focused on the OP since this is the personals issues section. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss parenting styles and teaching scary bible stories. But I'm not going to go tit-for-tat with you in here.

My earlier post was trying to figgure out the context of how the conversation came up, how the topic was discussed with the child to try to figure out why his wife is annoyed with him discusssing the topic.

was it done for shock value? Were they talking about a death of a bug of a person? what was going on?


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
@B & A. Wait, you are playing the CONTEXT card?!!! Just kidding. I would never do that, for shock value. I see where you are coming from, and I should have mentioned that. My grandmother is dying at the moment and that is what we were talking about. I was talking to him about her and the conversation kind of went there. He basically brought up some things that I am assuming he learned at church as I really don't see my wife talking about that with him (she usually punts that stuff off to other people). In any event, he brought up a few things in the distilled, and somewhat dishonest, way that sunday schools teach stories like Joshua, Sampson, Noah, etc. and that is how the conversation went there. I am not really sure whether she is actually annoyed with it though. She said something to me last night that she couldn't find what I was talking about and that led to a short but quite nice little talk. She seemed genuinely interested in it and I really appreciated her attitude. I have some homework to do for her to find the exact verses (I know roughly where they are but I need to get the exact ones). I do agree though, it shouldn't be sugarcoated. I find it silly that churches do it that way because if this is the inerrant word of god, why do they cut the parts out that will scare kids and edit the stories in a more palatable way only to lower the boom later? (I am being sarcastic, I know exactly why they do it)

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like The Organic Chemist's post
09-01-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
@ Stevil, that is essentially what I told my wife in response to her suggesting that I talk to someone about it. I can't in any way see how someone can justify some of the actions taken and still call themselves a moral person. Having said that, B&A is right, we can discuss this until the cows come home and still get nowhere. I am really interested though in others experiences with this kind of thing.

@ Hafnof your kid is 8, has this sort of thing occurred to you where your kid asked and how did you deal with it?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Organic Chemist's post
09-01-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
My daughter was thirteen when I finally came to grips about my lack of belief, it seemed she had quite a bit of skepticism and questions about Christianity when she realized that she could talk openly about it with me. I have been divorced for most of her life (just got married recently to a great gal that doesn't believe any religion either).
So I had no consideration for my exe's feelings, she was very religious. It really seemed quite natural for my daughter having skepticism, instead of having the adult in her life blowing smoke about how it was true whether or not it made sense, I would agree and explain to her why it didn't make sense.

That's the thing though, when a kid asks about all of those poor animals and humans that died in the Noahtic flood, I don't have to lie to my kid, I can simply say- yep, that's pretty screwed up and it was how ancient bronze-age myth tellers viewed the world back then.

You have the truth on your side and it's always going to be more compelling than someone making things up in light of the horrors that are in that book.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheInquisition's post
09-01-2015, 12:50 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
(09-01-2015 11:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  My daughter was thirteen when I finally came to grips about my lack of belief, it seemed she had quite a bit of skepticism and questions about Christianity when she realized that she could talk openly about it with me. I have been divorced for most of her life (just got married recently to a great gal that doesn't believe any religion either).
So I had no consideration for my exe's feelings, she was very religious. It really seemed quite natural for my daughter having skepticism, instead of having the adult in her life blowing smoke about how it was true whether or not it made sense, I would agree and explain to her why it didn't make sense.

That's the thing though, when a kid asks about all of those poor animals and humans that died in the Noahtic flood, I don't have to lie to my kid, I can simply say- yep, that's pretty screwed up and it was how ancient bronze-age myth tellers viewed the world back then.

You have the truth on your side and it's always going to be more compelling than someone making things up in light of the horrors that are in that book.

I really don't think that my wife is making any of it up though, nor do I think that fer friends are either. In my experience, most christians actually truly believe it. By my definition, that is not lying. My wife and I tell our boys that a lie is when you tell someone something is true even though you know is false. If you really think it's true, you're not lying, but you're still just as wrong. That is where the dichotomy of believers is kind of frustrating. They don't want to lie, but at the same time, they are only interested in hearing the truth that they like, no matter how powerful or plentiful the evidence wheras I prefer the old Russian saying of "I'd rather be slapped by the truth rather than kissed by a lie".

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2015, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2015 03:13 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Interesting conversation
(09-01-2015 08:30 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  @ Stevil, that is essentially what I told my wife in response to her suggesting that I talk to someone about it. I can't in any way see how someone can justify some of the actions taken and still call themselves a moral person. Having said that, B&A is right, we can discuss this until the cows come home and still get nowhere. I am really interested though in others experiences with this kind of thing.

@ Hafnof your kid is 8, has this sort of thing occurred to you where your kid asked and how did you deal with it?

I don't shield my kids from much, but don't push too hard either. I generally answer narrow questions with relatively narrow answers. When my kids do make bad arguments I play devil's advocate and try to help them see the flaws in what they are saying.

When my daughter came home singing about leaning not on her own understanding and letting Jesus direct her path I helped her clarify: Don't try and understand yourself, just do what you are told. When she talked about the flood I asked her about the babies drowned in the floodwaters. I have a feeling I have mentioned Elisha's bears. I have mentioned the hardening of Pharaoh's heart so that god could murder every firstborn child in Egypt. I don't think she'll be bamboozled by suggestions that the Biblical god is a source for any kind of absolute morality.

My wife has mostly quietly listened in on such things without passing comment in any way. She has had some bad experiences in the church and in church-run high school education so she is open to the idea that Christianity isn't an absolute force for good in this world. Over the last few years she has drifted further and further from any kind of established faith. On the other hand she doesn't want to let go of the idea that there is something out there, that there is an afterlife, and that we can meet up again with those who have passed before us.

My other child is 5, and he believes in God in the same way as he believes in Santa Claus. I'm still at the stage with him of waiting for him to find his own questions to ask. I don't push anything on him, and I cringe a little when Miss 8 talks about atheism. I want him to come to an understanding of faith on his own without too much external guidance. I think that a child has to find their own questions to ask before they can really build on the question of what it means to believe or not believe.

One thing I will say about that church family who were grilling Miss 8 on her atheism is that to some extent fair is fair Wink We attended the Christmas church service where one child from that family told my son outright that Santa doesn't exist, so a week later having my daughter telling those same children that Jesus doesn't exist was to some extent fair play. I think that in that family the notion is children should be told what to believe so they will believe the right thing, so Santa is right out. If you lie to them about Santa they might think you lied to them about Jesus. I take the opposite tack: Let's pretend Santa is real and let you find your own questions about that. Let's see you find your way out of that belief. Now, let's use that experience to understand belief in general and how one might find their way out of unfounded belief.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
10-01-2015, 05:35 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
Back to the OP, in my experience, this is something that falls into the category of "how to make a long standing marriage-friendship-relationship" work. What follows is my own personal experience and I will claim no universality for this...

People change over time, that's a given. My wife and I have been together now for 22 years and by golly how we've changed in that time. What I have found is that because we have always been very close and very affectionate towards each other (even though we have had blazing rows and moments we both regret) being close has allowed us to take each other along our own journeys. My journey from underachiever, to overachiever, to...whatever I am now has been navigated by my wife just as she has for my journey from non-denominational christian, pantheist to atheist. To parrot the cliche, it has been a journey of a million steps, each one a small one. What matters is that we've been close all along the way.

Of course, that's not without a few bumps. There are always a few shock little moments and disagreements. But this gradual inurement (for want of a better way to put it), with a strong dose of mutual respect and affection, has meant that we've made it together.

So far, so smug, I guess. Smile But back to the OP, my take on it is that small steps, little conversations here and there, interspersed with good times, laughs and respect might see you through. You seem to have that already.

What does not work so well for us is keeping it in. I've only found that this makes the widened distance that has opened up between us without our knowing, suddenly come as a surprise, requiring intervention and lot of long talks to mend. Why we keep things to ourselves is very personal. My wife tells me it is out of fear of what I'd think, a fear that is unwarranted, and over the years, she has come to understand is thus and things keep getting better between us.

For us, the whole religion issue is just another of these things, nothing more.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like gofish!'s post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: