Interesting conversation
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11-01-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(09-01-2015 11:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You have the truth on your side and it's always going to be more compelling than someone making things up in light of the horrors that are in that book.

This is it. Your wife will have to work very hard getting your kid to keep believing the nonsense. While you can occasionally quietly point to easy to understand truth. No contest. Hopefully your wife won't resent you for not lying. If she does, well...
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11-01-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(08-01-2015 12:38 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Well, I've mostly kept my mouth shut about it and am still ending up in a goddamn divorce despite trying to play nice about religion. Maybe I should press harder now, since it's a lost cause. Kinda depends on how much your spouse can handle - mine couldn't handle a damn thing.

I'm a little bitter right now...

I'm just trying to teach my 6 year old to question everything and think.

Some of my best friends, people I'd trust my life with, are deeply religious. But I will never date someone who believes in God. It either doesn't work, or it requires one of the two to put on a permanent mask. I get tired enough of doing that for the rest of the world. I need to be able to be myself at home.

'Murican Canadian
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11-01-2015, 05:27 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
This is one big thing me and my wife have discussed numerous amounts of times. While I'm an atheist and she's more of a agnostic drifting towards atheism we both have very christian families. Now my family is not so much in the picture anymore thanks to their constant preaching and such but hers is(we live not 8 miles from them). I'm more so worried about them pushing things on our future kids like they do with my nieces and nephews(making them pray at dinner, explaining the "real" reason of Christmas before presents, etc.). Now while we are just newlywed with no kids at the moment this is not currently a problem but I know it's going to be a problem when we get there. Like many of you I too want to not push my kid in any direction other than to always question things and to be respectful when doing this. That way you don't just blindly submit to some authority but still being respectful to not only adults but to everyone one they cross paths with.
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11-01-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
(11-01-2015 05:27 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  This is one big thing me and my wife have discussed numerous amounts of times. While I'm an atheist and she's more of a agnostic drifting towards atheism we both have very christian families. Now my family is not so much in the picture anymore thanks to their constant preaching and such but hers is(we live not 8 miles from them). I'm more so worried about them pushing things on our future kids like they do with my nieces and nephews(making them pray at dinner, explaining the "real" reason of Christmas before presents, etc.). Now while we are just newlywed with no kids at the moment this is not currently a problem but I know it's going to be a problem when we get there. Like many of you I too want to not push my kid in any direction other than to always question things and to be respectful when doing this. That way you don't just blindly submit to some authority but still being respectful to not only adults but to everyone one they cross paths with.

I've never pushed anything on our son and we've always treated him like a grown up (within certain limits, naturally): we explain things to him, ask him his opinion, help him to think critically and give him every opportunity to make his own decisions. He's 14 now and turning out to be a good critical thinker all by himself, regardless of other influences.

Importantly, we have not sheltered him away from religion and he's already drawing some intersting conclusions. I therefore submit that your children's future will be far more dictated by you and your wife's approach than others in your family.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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12-01-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(11-01-2015 05:44 PM)gofish! Wrote:  Importantly, we have not sheltered him away from religion and he's already drawing some intersting conclusions. I therefore submit that your children's future will be far more dictated by you and your wife's approach than others in your family.

Interestingly, so has mine. He has been going to church for several years but he has shown that he doesn't really buy it. I keep telling him to listen to what they have to say and consider it but don't believe it just because they told you so. He even told my this year that he really does not believe in Santa. Granted, my wife and I really never did the whole Santa thing to the extent that some parents do, but the reasons for him are what I find interesting. He reasoned on his own that it would be impossible for one person to do that in one evening.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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12-01-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
I am wondering if your wife is aware of just how much nasty stuff is in the bible? It seems that many are raised in a "happy" version of christianity and the evil stuff is fluffed over (don't look behind the curtain). It sometimes seems like they know there is evil in there but are choosing not to look at it? And its only when someone (you) come along with your big spotlight and pull that curtain back does everyone see and squint their eyes at its ugliness.



or am I off base?


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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12-01-2015, 10:33 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 10:39 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Interesting conversation
(12-01-2015 12:23 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I am wondering if your wife is aware of just how much nasty stuff is in the bible? It seems that many are raised in a "happy" version of christianity and the evil stuff is fluffed over (don't look behind the curtain). It sometimes seems like they know there is evil in there but are choosing not to look at it? And its only when someone (you) come along with your big spotlight and pull that curtain back does everyone see and squint their eyes at its ugliness.



or am I off base?

Hit the nail on the head, actually. It's ironic you wrote that. After she and I talked about how she couldn't find anything in there about killing kids, I wrote her a rather lengthy email citing the verses, putting them into the context, and then gave an alternate explanation that the Life Application Bible that she has conveniently ignores. If you have never read it, it is really silly and (IMO) deflects the awfulness that is stated by saying that genocide was "righteous judgement". I have told her that she actually believes "christianity lite" since it edits out the bad stuff or spins it so terribly that she doesn't know any better.

Here is an except from the message:
A well known one, Exodus 12
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.
This includes children of the slaves as well, some translations even say so. It also begs to ask whether a firstborn fetus was also killed. Not sure, never says. The animals were just a dick move since what the heck did they have to do with any of this? This one in particular is heinous because according to Exodus 10:1, 10:27, and 11:10, pharoah’s heart was hardened BY GOD so that he would not be convinced (BTW, isn’t this messing with free will?) and only after the slaughter of the 1st borns does god allow pharaoh to make up his mind. He does it AGAIN in 14:8 which causes pharaoh to chase the Isrealites ultimately leading to the parting of the Red Sea story and not to mention the deaths of about 600 people. So he compelled pharaoh to NOT be convinced by his plagues (so what was the point then?) so that he could kill the firstborns, he then allows pharaoh to let them leave and then compels him again to chase them which leads him to kill more people.

I ended the message with this:
These are not addressing the places where child abuse, slavery, misogyny, genocide, instances where god lies (yes, there are examples) or other things occur. These are all taken directly from the book. Also bear in mind, Hebrews 13:8, Malachi 3:6, Isaiah 40:8, Hebrews 6:17, and Psalm 119 all say quite specifically that these are the unchangeable (Malachi), fixed (Psalm), forever the same (Hebrews 13) actions and promises (Hebrews 6) of an all loving and forgiving being. If humanity is god's pet dog (which isn't too far off of how we are presented), the ASPCA would have taken us away by now. Sweetheart, I am not trying to convince you to not believe, I am only trying to give you some insight as to why I don’t. I love you.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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12-01-2015, 11:49 PM
RE: Interesting conversation
First off: Well done. The closing sentiment is exactly right.

Secondly: Wouldn't killing off all the firstborn have also killed the Pharaoh? The dude who is (presumably) the firstborn son of the previous Pharaoh?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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13-01-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Interesting conversation
(12-01-2015 11:49 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  First off: Well done. The closing sentiment is exactly right.

Secondly: Wouldn't killing off all the firstborn have also killed the Pharaoh? The dude who is (presumably) the firstborn son of the previous Pharaoh?

Thanks. I hadn't thought about the pharaoh one although it could be argued that since his name is never mentioned specifically, there could have been an older brother who died young. I also didn't mention (although I should have) that all of the livestock (except for the jewish ones, because we all know that slaves can own cattle) in Egypt were killed in Exodus 9. So unless they managed to restock all of the livestock in the country in short order, there should have been pretty much no animals to kill in Exodus 12.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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