Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
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11-05-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
Quote:Most are too busy disproving religion to consider why it is so persistent [...]

In other words, they are attacking the persistence directly. Good. The more believers realize why their beliefs are baseless, the more will abandon them, to the betterment of all.
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11-05-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
I thought the excerpt in the OP was written by another atheist who is voicing a concern that the most recently outspoken atheists aren't taking into account that people believe for a multitude of reasons that go beyond rational thought. To me, if belief can be shot down on rational grounds, then it needs to be discarded. However, I know of a number of people who have stated "If God doesn't exist, then what's the purpose of life?". For these types of people, you're not going to open their eyes just by reason alone. I think many people who feel "attacked" by a "militant atheist" feel much like a native of a 3rd world country where a superpower comes in, destroys the current gov't and then leaves with a "good luck". For a number of people, they need more than just the truth. Right or wrong, that's the reality of it I believe - especially for older people who are also seeing the Christian churches slowly (and sometimes more quickly) die. I forget who, but I believe another poster in another thread opined that the older people need to be written off and efforts focused on the young. Kicking the props of faith away from geriatric is not going to get you anything. Continue to use reason and science to show how religious beliefs are not tenable, but recognize that the most likely people to resonate with the message will be younger people who have a lot of life ahead of them. JMHO.
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11-05-2015, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2015 09:46 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
SUNDAY, MAY 10, 2015 02:30 AM FJT
New Atheism’s fatal arrogance: The glaring intellectual laziness of Bill Maher & Richard Dawkins
For all their eloquence, New Atheists show little interest in understanding how believers really think or feel.
SEAN ILLING

......

Bullshit.
Yet another rant for Utilitarianism. I disagree with almost all this writer's presumptions. It's not the job of anyone to replace the comforts of religion with anything. If ex-believers want to look for that, or shop for what is most comfortable, that's their business. He seems to think that it's a matter of one belief system being replaced with another. It's NOT. Not all atheists are "New Atheists" also, by his definitions. Fundamentalism DESERVES a "pugilistic" response, and even academic RELIGION is/has been an essential part of that, and has been for decades, if not a century. It's not their commission to "understand the religious compulsion". That's for Psychology. He presents yet another, (ho hum) Utilitarian argument/explanation for religion, without consideration of the dangers of that argument. The idea of god, is not only "untouchable" by science, but it's untouchable by anything, as it's essentially incoherent. It's also the religionists who are just as culpable, in engaging in and constantly arguing, (contrary to their OWN scriptures), that there are "proofs" for a god. He's also wrong, TOTALLY about Dostoevsky. At the very end of "The Grand Inquisitor", the Christ figure kisses the Inquisitor, and "the kiss glowed in his heart, but the old man adhered to his idea". There's nothing "transcendental" about his view of what Christianity was all about. It had nothing to do with a god. Ultimately, it was about human kindness, and empathy.

Edit : Atheists don't "replace god with science". Science stands on its own for what it is. The idea of "god" is meaningless, on its own. This (common) error, that "science replaces god" is really tiresome. Kenneth Miller does it in "Finding Darwin's God". Science is a method. The word "god" is devoid of (any) real meaning. Despite the fact that religionists seem to need to conflate the function of the two, they really are not related.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-05-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
(10-05-2015 12:39 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-05-2015 09:59 AM)peacefrog Wrote:  My takeaway from this is that it's futile to engage some people in debate. Save your breath. Nothing will convince such people.

But that's not the point of the debate. There are plenty of people out there who can and will accept the truth but they need to hear good arguments to get them there. They seek it out. It's exactly how I came to my senses, from listening to both sides of the argument. The reason that I'm able to think about issues critically and base my values on a sound, informed worldview is because there are people willing to "waste their breath" having these debates.

It is incredibly important to have these arguments and debates available for anyone that will listen to them. I and countless others are testament to that.

Good point. Thanks.
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11-05-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
So, basically, the article claims that 'new atheists' miss the point that people's religious beliefs give the believer the 'warm fuzzys'.

Pardon us if we would rather have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible.

It's not arrogance, it's the quest to have our internal models of the universe map as closely as possible to external reality.

It is this quest that has lead to every single advancement that the author takes advantage of in his daily life, yet he disparages it when it comes to his pet religious beliefs. Moron.
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11-05-2015, 05:09 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
(11-05-2015 04:25 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  So, basically, the article claims that 'new atheists' miss the point that people's religious beliefs give the believer the 'warm fuzzys'.

Pardon us if we would rather have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible.

But it's also that... what exactly does the author want us to engage with, regarding these "personally transformative" beliefs?

Seriously. If the position of belief contains the premises "I believe this to be factual, but it is untrue," what exactly are we supposed to say? Where's the point of debate? Are we supposed to argue someone out of that belief, when they've already committed to believing in things because they feel good? How would we even do that? And what would be the point?
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11-05-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
(09-05-2015 10:00 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  "But you have no idea how much it means to me to believe a lie. Just last week, I won 3 lotteries in a row and married Angelina Jolie on our brand new yacht. I'm not concerned with the truth. I'm only interested in how meaningful this delusion is. It has truly transformed my life. "

^That's what I took away from all that crap.

Agreed. Let's take the argument one step further.

"You have no idea how much I enjoy smoking. It gives me a break from work and helps me relax. I feel high every time I drag in. How dare you question what makes me feel good? I want everybody to share this pleasure. I'm going to give my six year old a cigarette now."
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12-05-2015, 01:35 AM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
(11-05-2015 05:09 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 04:25 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  So, basically, the article claims that 'new atheists' miss the point that people's religious beliefs give the believer the 'warm fuzzys'.

Pardon us if we would rather have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible.

But it's also that... what exactly does the author want us to engage with, regarding these "personally transformative" beliefs?

Seriously. If the position of belief contains the premises "I believe this to be factual, but it is untrue," what exactly are we supposed to say? Where's the point of debate? Are we supposed to argue someone out of that belief, when they've already committed to believing in things because they feel good? How would we even do that? And what would be the point?

Maybe author doesn't want us trying to discuss said beliefs? Though he wrote something about Harris saying that we should be more attentive to suffering of others.

As for belief there is no sense debating someone who believes because this makes him fell good. What you could tell to someone who does not care about truth?

And frankly if one keeps his beliefs to himself then I don't see the point of trying to enlighten him, though it's usually not the case.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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12-05-2015, 01:58 AM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
(10-05-2015 09:49 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-05-2015 09:14 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Camus was an atheist, but he understood the instinct for transcendence. And he knew that God was a solution (however false) to the problem of meaninglessness. Against the backdrop of death, what matters more: truth or a reason for living? “I’ve never seen anyone die for the ontological argument,” Camus wrote, but “I see many people die because they judge that life is not worth living. I see others getting killed for ideas or illusions that give them a reason for living.”

Think Camus got it right. God can be a solution to the problem of meaninglessness, but it's a lazy one.

It's not a lazy one, it's just one that is inauthentic and it truly avoids the problem. It's not really an answer to him, it's deluding oneself to get by, which we can do, but confronting the absurd in all these solutions, and not fearing it or cowering from it is his real suggested solution.

Has the guy who wrote this diatribe really paid attention to these authors? Especially Sam Harris before just that recent book. For years his books have had that tinged in towards the end here or there and Many people have been at odds with him because he speaks on what this author is getting at. Harris brings up tons of points on perhaps bridging some essence of the mental soothingness of believing or meditating on these metaphysical ideas instead of pure dismissal of it. He is far from a fringe voice if he considers them all relevant. He is still more significant than the author lets on, he just doesn't want to admit his generalization isn't as strong as he thought before thinking about it more.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-05-2015, 03:25 AM
RE: Interesting take on Atheism and what it misses about those who believe
Occam's Razor.. The simplest solution is usually the correct one.

The simplest answer is to say God Did It


Checkmate, Atheists!!!!!
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