Interview With An Atheist
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22-04-2015, 02:31 PM
Interview With An Atheist
Q: Why was the Bible written?

A: To control the people.

Q: What people?

A: Bronze Age goat herders.

Q: When was the Bible written?

A: Hundreds of years after it is supposed to have taken place.

Q: So, the Bible was written in the Iron Age to control people who lived in the Bronze Age hundreds of years earlier?

A: Hmmm . . .

Q: What about the so called New Testament?

A: Christianity was invented by Paul sometime later than it allegedly took place.

Q: Paul invented a religion that earlier he persecuted?

A: I didn't say it made any sense.

I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of atheists.
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22-04-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: Interview With An Atheist
Point?
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22-04-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Interview With An Atheist
[Image: azure_ab24e554107d7813c60d2b7eff4506a0.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Interview With An Atheist
Conversation with a Theist:

Theist: Ha! I have defeated a straw version of an argument some of you use!

Atheist: And?

Theist:...Look, Jesus is on this toast!

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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22-04-2015, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 03:16 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Interview With An Atheist
(22-04-2015 02:31 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Q: Why was the Bible written?

A: To control the people.

Q: What people?

A: Bronze Age goat herders.

Q: When was the Bible written?

A: Hundreds of years after it is supposed to have taken place.

Q: So, the Bible was written in the Iron Age to control people who lived in the Bronze Age hundreds of years earlier?

A: Hmmm . . .

Q: What about the so called New Testament?

A: Christianity was invented by Paul sometime later than it allegedly took place.

Q: Paul invented a religion that earlier he persecuted?

A: I didn't say it made any sense.

I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of atheists.

Q: Who wrote the old testament?

A: Moses!

Q: No he actually never existed, Today we know that the Judean priests cooked up/assembled Genesis for political reasons in Babylon as a text for reference for the return, to provide a national story and a legal system for a basis for the return. They did it around 575-550 BCE, in order to promote political unity during a crisis caused by the exilic experience in Babylon, after having written the book of Job, (as an attempted "spiritual" response to the question of suffering)....um, who wrote the synoptic gospels?

A: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!

Q: No, actually Mark was written first by a group of anonymous authors in 60 to 75 CE, then Matthew and Luke's authors wrote their version based on Mark in 80 to 90 CE, then the Johannine community put together the book of John in 80-110 CE...um....did the exodus actually happen?

A: Of course, it is in the bible!

Q: no, actually there is zero evidence for the exodus. The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. 600k hebrew slaves and their families and animals would have numbered 2 million or so, the desert is only 120 miles, follow the ocean, no need to go 40 years in a circle while making sacrifices on fires made from non existent trees, besides by the time the front row of the column would have reached the promised land, the last row would have still been in Eygpt, irrelevant as there exists not one tiny shard of proof it ever happened....um....did the global flood actually happen?

A: Yes! it says so in the bible!

Q: no, You do realize there is not evidence global wide to reflect the mythical flood, I can dismantle the myth to great length, it never happened, and as per the bible it happened 2349 BCE, when there were other major civilizations in the world that not only didn't get wiped out, but failed to even mention it..odd don't you think? So as the story goes, Noah and his family of 8 set out from the Ark, and repopulated the world right?

A: Yes, it says so in the bible!

Q: no, The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today. *shakes head in pity at the epic ignorance*

I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of theists.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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22-04-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Interview With An Atheist
(22-04-2015 02:31 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Q: Why was the Bible written?

A: To control the people.

Q: What people?

A: Bronze Age goat herders.

Q: When was the Bible written?

A: Hundreds of years after it is supposed to have taken place.

Q: So, the Bible was written in the Iron Age to control people who lived in the Bronze Age hundreds of years earlier?

A: Hmmm . . .

Q: What about the so called New Testament?

A: Christianity was invented by Paul sometime later than it allegedly took place.

Q: Paul invented a religion that earlier he persecuted?

A: I didn't say it made any sense.

I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of atheists.

So tell us, when and why exactly, was the OT written, and by whom. Then tell us exactly how Christianity arose, and prove there was a Paul, and that he wrote anything. Then explain why there are at least two philosophical outlooks in Paul, and explain why and how, (despite the fact that scholars know the time-lines are impossible) the claims about the missionary journies are even possible. Take your time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2015, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 04:11 PM by The Theist.)
RE: Interview With An Atheist
(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Q: Who wrote the old testament?

A: Moses!

The"Old Testament"? The term is inaccurate.

"in ignorance of the philology of later and vulgar Latin, it was formerly supposed that 'testamentum,' by which the word [diatheke] is rendered in the early Latin versions as well as in the Vulgate, meant 'testament' or 'will,' whereas in fact it meant also, if not exclusively, 'covenant.'" Essays in Biblical Greek, Oxford, 1889, p. 48, Edwin Hatch

"in the old Latin translation of the Scriptures testamentum became the common rendering of the word [diatheke]. As, however, this rendering is very often found where it is impossible to think of such a meaning as will (for example, in Ps. lxxxiii, 5, where no one will suppose the Psalmist to say that the enemies of God 'have arranged a testament against Him'), it is plain that the Latin testamentum was used with an extended meaning, answering to the wide application of the Greek word." A Bible Commentary for English Readers, edited by Charles Ellicott, New York, Vol. VIII, p. 309, W. F. Moulton

Also, Moses wasn't the only author of what is commonly termed erroneously as "The Old Testament."

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Q: No he actually never existed, Today we know that the Judean priests cooked up/assembled Genesis for political reasons in Babylon as a text for reference for the return, to provide a national story and a legal system for a basis for the return. They did it around 575-550 BCE, in order to promote political unity during a crisis caused by the exilic experience in Babylon, after having written the book of Job, (as an attempted "spiritual" response to the question of suffering)

What evidence is given for this?

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  um, who wrote the synoptic gospels?

A: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!

Q: No, actually Mark was written first by a group of anonymous authors in 60 to 75 CE, then Matthew and Luke's authors wrote their version based on Mark in 80 to 90 CE, then the Johannine community put together the book of John in 80-110 CE

Again, what evidence is there of these claims? Also, what about Origen, who, being quoted by Eusebius, said of Matthew's gospel: "first was written . . . according to Matthew, . . . who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." The Ecclesiastical History, VI, XXV, 3-6.

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...um....did the exodus actually happen?

A: Of course, it is in the bible!

Q: no, actually there is zero evidence for the exodus. The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel . . . . 600k hebrew slaves and their families and animals would have numbered 2 million or so, the desert is only 120 miles, follow the ocean, no need to go 40 years in a circle while making sacrifices on fires made from non existent trees, besides by the time the front row of the column would have reached the promised land, the last row would have still been in Eygpt, irrelevant as there exists not one tiny shard of proof it ever happened.

There is zero evidence in your opinion, that the exodus ever happened, therefor it couldn't have happened? Is that what you are saying?

Egyptian chronology is uniquely important because it is used in so much of ancient historical observation but also because at times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728 B.C.E. Israel entered into Egypt and 215 years later the Exodus. 1513. Pharaoh Shishak's attack on Jerusalem took place during Rhoboam's fifth year in 993 B.C.E. King So of Egypt reigned about the same time as Hoshea, c. 758 - 740 B.C.E. and Pharaoh Necho's battle that resulted in Josiah's death was likely in 629 B.C.E. (1 Kings 14:25 / 2 Kings 17:4 / 2 Chronicles 35:20-24) Modern historians would differ from this as much as a century but narrow down to about 20 years by Necho's time.

The reason is that modern historians rely upon documents such as the Egyptian king lists and annals. The fragmentary Palermo Stone with the first five "dynasties," the Turin Papyrus which only gives fragmentary lists of kings and their reigns from the "Old Kingdom" into the "New Kingdom," and other fragmentary inscriptions. These and other independent inscriptions were coordinated in chronological order by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C.E. He divides the Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties which modern Egyptologists still use today. With astronomical calculations based upon Egyptian texts of lunar phases and the rising of the Sothis (Dog Star) a chronological table can be produced.

Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.

Egyptologist Dr. Hans Goedicke of Johns Hopkins University has a nonsensical theory that the Biblical record of the events at the Red Sea and the Exodus coincided with a 1477 B.C.E. volcanic eruption at Thera resulting in a tsunami or tidal wave that drowned the Egyptian forces, but his theory doesn't pay much attention to the Biblical account which mentions no wave.

The Hyksos period of Egyptian history warrants the same degree of caution and suspicion. Some believe that the Hyksos were a foreign people that gained control of Egypt and place Joseph's and then his family's entry into Egypt as being during that period of the Hyksos rulers, but only on the premise that it would have been more likely for a foreign ruler to have given a non Egyptian the position of second ruler.

But that theory disagrees with the Bible. Potiphar the court official was an Egyptian (Genesis 39:1) and Joseph was surrounded by native Egyptians. (Genesis 43:32)

Josephus, the source of the name Hyksos, accepted some connection between them and the Israelites but argued against many of the details found in Manetho's account. He (Josephus) preferred the term Hyksos as Captive Shepherds rather than Shepherd Kings.

Manetho presented the Hyksos as gaining control of Egypt without a battle and then destroying their cities and temples. Many years later the Egyptians supposedly rose up and fought a long and terrible war against them. Finally an Egyptian force of 480,000 men besieged them at their chief city, Avaris, and then, oddly enough, an agreement was reached that allowed the Hyksos to leave the country unharmed and they went to Judea and built Jerusalem. (Against Apion, Book I, par. 14)

Manetho adds to the account in what Josephus labels a fictitious addition of a large group of 80,000 leprous and diseased persons being allowed to settle in Avaris after the shepherds had left. Those persons later revolted and called back the "shepherds" (Hyksos?) who destroyed the cities and villages etc. (Against Apion, Book I, pars. 26, 28)

Though modern historians agree with the idea of a Hyksos conquest, they believe Josephus quotations as inaccurate in associating the Hyksos with the Israelites. They can't find much information from ancient Egyptian sources to fill in the records of the "Thirteenth to the Seventeenth Dynasties." Since they can't find it, they assume that some disintegration of power occurred in the "Thirteenth and Fourteenth Dynasties" based upon not much information, Egyptian folklore, and conjecture they conclude that it was the "Fifteenth and Sixteenth Dynasties" that Egypt was under the domination of the Hyksos.

Some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as "northern hordes . . . Sweeping through Palestine and Egypt with swift chariots." Others present them moving as a 'creeping conquest,' a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or semi nomads who slowly took control or as a swift coup d'etat . In The World of the Past, 1963, page 444 archaeologist Jaquetta Hawkes says: "It is no longer thought that the Hyksos rulers . . . represent the invasion of a conquering horde of Asiatics. The name seems to mean Rulers of the Uplands, and they were wandering groups of Semites who had long come to Egypt for trade and other peaceful purposes."

If that were true how would these wandering groups have gained control of Egypt in the "Twelfth Dynasty" which was about the time of Egypt's peek of power. It indicates to me a considerable amount of confusion on the parts of not only ancient Egyptian history but modern interpreters as well. No validity of the Hyksos Period can be achieved.

Another point of consideration is the fact that Egypt, like many Near Eastern lands, was heavily linked with the priesthood and the scribes were well trained under their tutelage leaving the very possible fact that propagandistic explanations were invented to account for the Egyptian gods to deal with Jehovah and the exodus.

If the Exodus account can be questioned it is only because the Pharaohs of Egypt didn't make any record of it. That is not unusual. They tended to record only their victories and not their defeats and they tried to erase anything historical that was contrary to their nationalistic image or ideology. Thutmose III, for example, chiseled away inscriptions made of Queen Hatshepsut on a stone monumental record found at Deir al-Bahri in Egypt.

Manetho the Egyptian priest and historian hated the Jews and Josephus quotes Manetho as saying that the ancestors of the Jews "entered Egypt in their myriads and subdued the inhabitants," Josephus said that Manetho "goes on to admit that they were afterwards driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple." - Against Apion, I, 228 (26).

Though Manetho's account is regarded as unhistorical the fact remains that he mentions them as being in Egypt, going out and in other writings identifies Moses with Osarsiph, an Egyptian priest. Josephus also mentions two other Egyptian historians; Chaeremon, and Lysimachus who said that Joseph and Moses were driven out of Egypt at the same time. - Against Apion, I, 228, 238 (26); 288, 290 (32); 299 (33); 304-311 (34).

Jeroboam fled to Egypt to escape Solomon when Shishak ruled (1 Kings 11:40). Later, in the fifth year of Solomon's successor Rehoboam's (933 B.C.E.) Shishak invaded Judah but didn't bring Jerusalem to ruin. (2 Chronicles 12:1-12)

Archaeological evidence of Shishak's invading the area of Palestine was found on a fragment of stele at Megiddo and mentions Sheshonk as a victory of his. (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, pages 263, 264) A relief on a temple wall at Karnak, the north part of the ancient Egyptian city of Thebes, lists numerous cities and villages that Shishak conquered. (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum, Leiden, 1957, Vol. IV, pages 59-60) It is likely that his campaign was not so much to assist the ten tribe kingdom but to gain control of the trade routes located in the territory of that kingdom, thus extending Egypt's power and influence.

Necho[h] was a pharaoh of Egypt, who, according to Herodotus (II, 158, 159; IV, 42) was the son of Psammetichus (Psammetichos, Psamtik I) and succeeded his father as ruler of Egypt. He began construction on a canal linking the Nile with the Red Sea but didn't complete the project, though he did send a Phoenician fleet on a voyage around Africa in three years.

At the close of Josiah's 31 year reign (659 - 629 B.C.E.) he was on his way to help the Assyrians at the river Euphrates. Josiah disregarded "the words of Necho from the mouth of God" and was killed while attempting to turn the Egyptians back at Megiddo. Three months later Necho took Jehoahaz, Josiah's successor, captive and made 25 year old Eliakim his vassal, changing his name to Jehoiakim. He (Necho) also put a heavy fine on Judah. (2 Chronicles 35:20-36:1-4 / 2 Kings 23:29-35) About 3 or 4 years later Necho's forces were defeated at Charchemish at the hands of the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. (Jeremiah 46:2) Pathway Machine | Sience & The Bible: Bible Dating

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.

Again. Evidence of this is?

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  um....did the global flood actually happen?

A: Yes! it says so in the bible!

Q: no, You do realize there is not evidence global wide to reflect the mythical flood, I can dismantle the myth to great length, it never happened, and as per the bible it happened 2349 BCE, when there were other major civilizations in the world that not only didn't get wiped out, but failed to even mention it..odd don't you think? So as the story goes, Noah and his family of 8 set out from the Ark, and repopulated the world right?

A: Yes, it says so in the bible!

Q: no, The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today. *shakes head in pity at the epic ignorance*

First we need to establish how you came upon the date of 2349 then we have to examine how you estimate the population.

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of theists.

I have no doubt you have, and I similar pointless exchanges. Thanks for a reasonably thoughtful answer. It was like a breath of fresh air.
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22-04-2015, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 05:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Interview With An Atheist
Moses was a mythical element in the myth system from the old Northern Kingdom. There is not a shred of evidence for him, in history. We know the Exodus never happened the way the Bible describes it. It is impossible. Archaeology has debunked him and it. So THAT's all you have. Books from over 100 years ago ?

"In 1952, a team was set in place by the world-famous, preeminent scholar, archaeologist and pioneer discoverer of Holy Land historical sites and documents, Dr. William Foxwell Albright, the professor of Semitic languages at the Johns Hopkins University. Their job was to write criticisms and scholarly work concerning all biblical texts. The team was composed of the most respected biblical scholars in the US and Europe, including Dr. John W. Bailey, Professor Emeritus, New Testament, Berkley Baptist Divinity School, Dr Albert E. Barnett, Professor Candler School of Theology, Emory University, Dr. Walter Russell Bowel, Professor, The Protestant Episcopal Seminary, Virginia, Dr. John Bright, Professor, Union Seminary and many others.

The team of 124 clergymen and scholars came mostly from conservative, mainline universities and churches for the most part, the likes of whom will never be seen again in one place, whose names evoke the utmost and deepest respect, even if one completely disagrees with their religious views. They wrote the huge 13 volume set, now considered a valuable rare book, called "The Interpreters Bible". Today it is usually kept under lock and key in seminaries and libraries. This set includes an introduction to scholarship and looks at every single verse and word in the Bible, discusses their origins and possible meanings from various points of view. It has been updated in the 1990's, but the original scholarship is still the central fundamental summary of knowledge, which summarized scholarship from the Medieval period (1850's -1950's) and is therefore considered to be an interesting historical snapshot. It is also an assurance that these absolutely respected leading intellectuals from the 20th Century scholarship, of whom most were religious, have agreed to have each others names associated with their own and that they felt comfortable with what each other were saying in an academic setting and commanded world-wide respect as conservative, careful, and sincere, life-long teachers, academics and scholars.

On page 15 of "The Interpreters Bible", Dr. Herbert F. Farmer, Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University wrote about the indispensability of the texts, their importance and how the "truth" of them should be approached, after an exposition of the traditional conservative Christian view of person-hood, sin and the salvific actions of Jesus (aka Yeshua ben Josef), known as "the Christ" in human history.

"The reason has to do with the evidence afforded by the texts themselves, and calls for fuller treatment. Scholarly research into the texts themselves, has convincingly shown that they cannot be accepted in detail as they stand."

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look

You got nothing, Mr Theist. People here know more about your "holy books" than you do.




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22-04-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: Interview With An Atheist
(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Q: Who wrote the old testament?

A: Moses!

The"Old Testament"? The term is inaccurate.

"in ignorance of the philology of later and vulgar Latin, it was formerly supposed that 'testamentum,' by which the word [diatheke] is rendered in the early Latin versions as well as in the Vulgate, meant 'testament' or 'will,' whereas in fact it meant also, if not exclusively, 'covenant.'" Essays in Biblical Greek, Oxford, 1889, p. 48, Edwin Hatch

"in the old Latin translation of the Scriptures testamentum became the common rendering of the word [diatheke]. As, however, this rendering is very often found where it is impossible to think of such a meaning as will (for example, in Ps. lxxxiii, 5, where no one will suppose the Psalmist to say that the enemies of God 'have arranged a testament against Him'), it is plain that the Latin testamentum was used with an extended meaning, answering to the wide application of the Greek word." A Bible Commentary for English Readers, edited by Charles Ellicott, New York, Vol. VIII, p. 309, W. F. Moulton

Also, Moses wasn't the only author of what is commonly termed erroneously as "The Old Testament."

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Q: No he actually never existed, Today we know that the Judean priests cooked up/assembled Genesis for political reasons in Babylon as a text for reference for the return, to provide a national story and a legal system for a basis for the return. They did it around 575-550 BCE, in order to promote political unity during a crisis caused by the exilic experience in Babylon, after having written the book of Job, (as an attempted "spiritual" response to the question of suffering)

What evidence is given for this?

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  um, who wrote the synoptic gospels?

A: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!

Q: No, actually Mark was written first by a group of anonymous authors in 60 to 75 CE, then Matthew and Luke's authors wrote their version based on Mark in 80 to 90 CE, then the Johannine community put together the book of John in 80-110 CE

Again, what evidence is there of these claims? Also, what about Origen, who, being quoted by Eusebius, said of Matthew's gospel: "first was written . . . according to Matthew, . . . who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." The Ecclesiastical History, VI, XXV, 3-6.

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  ...um....did the exodus actually happen?

A: Of course, it is in the bible!

Q: no, actually there is zero evidence for the exodus. The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel . . . . 600k hebrew slaves and their families and animals would have numbered 2 million or so, the desert is only 120 miles, follow the ocean, no need to go 40 years in a circle while making sacrifices on fires made from non existent trees, besides by the time the front row of the column would have reached the promised land, the last row would have still been in Eygpt, irrelevant as there exists not one tiny shard of proof it ever happened.

There is zero evidence in your opinion, that the exodus ever happened, therefor it couldn't have happened? Is that what you are saying?

Egyptian chronology is uniquely important because it is used in so much of ancient historical observation but also because at times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728 B.C.E. Israel entered into Egypt and 215 years later the Exodus. 1513. Pharaoh Shishak's attack on Jerusalem took place during Rhoboam's fifth year in 993 B.C.E. King So of Egypt reigned about the same time as Hoshea, c. 758 - 740 B.C.E. and Pharaoh Necho's battle that resulted in Josiah's death was likely in 629 B.C.E. (1 Kings 14:25 / 2 Kings 17:4 / 2 Chronicles 35:20-24) Modern historians would differ from this as much as a century but narrow down to about 20 years by Necho's time.

The reason is that modern historians rely upon documents such as the Egyptian king lists and annals. The fragmentary Palermo Stone with the first five "dynasties," the Turin Papyrus which only gives fragmentary lists of kings and their reigns from the "Old Kingdom" into the "New Kingdom," and other fragmentary inscriptions. These and other independent inscriptions were coordinated in chronological order by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C.E. He divides the Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties which modern Egyptologists still use today. With astronomical calculations based upon Egyptian texts of lunar phases and the rising of the Sothis (Dog Star) a chronological table can be produced.

Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.

Egyptologist Dr. Hans Goedicke of Johns Hopkins University has a nonsensical theory that the Biblical record of the events at the Red Sea and the Exodus coincided with a 1477 B.C.E. volcanic eruption at Thera resulting in a tsunami or tidal wave that drowned the Egyptian forces, but his theory doesn't pay much attention to the Biblical account which mentions no wave.

The Hyksos period of Egyptian history warrants the same degree of caution and suspicion. Some believe that the Hyksos were a foreign people that gained control of Egypt and place Joseph's and then his family's entry into Egypt as being during that period of the Hyksos rulers, but only on the premise that it would have been more likely for a foreign ruler to have given a non Egyptian the position of second ruler.

But that theory disagrees with the Bible. Potiphar the court official was an Egyptian (Genesis 39:1) and Joseph was surrounded by native Egyptians. (Genesis 43:32)

Josephus, the source of the name Hyksos, accepted some connection between them and the Israelites but argued against many of the details found in Manetho's account. He (Josephus) preferred the term Hyksos as Captive Shepherds rather than Shepherd Kings.

Manetho presented the Hyksos as gaining control of Egypt without a battle and then destroying their cities and temples. Many years later the Egyptians supposedly rose up and fought a long and terrible war against them. Finally an Egyptian force of 480,000 men besieged them at their chief city, Avaris, and then, oddly enough, an agreement was reached that allowed the Hyksos to leave the country unharmed and they went to Judea and built Jerusalem. (Against Apion, Book I, par. 14)

Manetho adds to the account in what Josephus labels a fictitious addition of a large group of 80,000 leprous and diseased persons being allowed to settle in Avaris after the shepherds had left. Those persons later revolted and called back the "shepherds" (Hyksos?) who destroyed the cities and villages etc. (Against Apion, Book I, pars. 26, 28)

Though modern historians agree with the idea of a Hyksos conquest, they believe Josephus quotations as inaccurate in associating the Hyksos with the Israelites. They can't find much information from ancient Egyptian sources to fill in the records of the "Thirteenth to the Seventeenth Dynasties." Since they can't find it, they assume that some disintegration of power occurred in the "Thirteenth and Fourteenth Dynasties" based upon not much information, Egyptian folklore, and conjecture they conclude that it was the "Fifteenth and Sixteenth Dynasties" that Egypt was under the domination of the Hyksos.

Some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as "northern hordes . . . Sweeping through Palestine and Egypt with swift chariots." Others present them moving as a 'creeping conquest,' a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or semi nomads who slowly took control or as a swift coup d'etat . In The World of the Past, 1963, page 444 archaeologist Jaquetta Hawkes says: "It is no longer thought that the Hyksos rulers . . . represent the invasion of a conquering horde of Asiatics. The name seems to mean Rulers of the Uplands, and they were wandering groups of Semites who had long come to Egypt for trade and other peaceful purposes."

If that were true how would these wandering groups have gained control of Egypt in the "Twelfth Dynasty" which was about the time of Egypt's peek of power. It indicates to me a considerable amount of confusion on the parts of not only ancient Egyptian history but modern interpreters as well. No validity of the Hyksos Period can be achieved.

Another point of consideration is the fact that Egypt, like many Near Eastern lands, was heavily linked with the priesthood and the scribes were well trained under their tutelage leaving the very possible fact that propagandistic explanations were invented to account for the Egyptian gods to deal with Jehovah and the exodus.

If the Exodus account can be questioned it is only because the Pharaohs of Egypt didn't make any record of it. That is not unusual. They tended to record only their victories and not their defeats and they tried to erase anything historical that was contrary to their nationalistic image or ideology. Thutmose III, for example, chiseled away inscriptions made of Queen Hatshepsut on a stone monumental record found at Deir al-Bahri in Egypt.

Manetho the Egyptian priest and historian hated the Jews and Josephus quotes Manetho as saying that the ancestors of the Jews "entered Egypt in their myriads and subdued the inhabitants," Josephus said that Manetho "goes on to admit that they were afterwards driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple." - Against Apion, I, 228 (26).

Though Manetho's account is regarded as unhistorical the fact remains that he mentions them as being in Egypt, going out and in other writings identifies Moses with Osarsiph, an Egyptian priest. Josephus also mentions two other Egyptian historians; Chaeremon, and Lysimachus who said that Joseph and Moses were driven out of Egypt at the same time. - Against Apion, I, 228, 238 (26); 288, 290 (32); 299 (33); 304-311 (34).

Jeroboam fled to Egypt to escape Solomon when Shishak ruled (1 Kings 11:40). Later, in the fifth year of Solomon's successor Rehoboam's (933 B.C.E.) Shishak invaded Judah but didn't bring Jerusalem to ruin. (2 Chronicles 12:1-12)

Archaeological evidence of Shishak's invading the area of Palestine was found on a fragment of stele at Megiddo and mentions Sheshonk as a victory of his. (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, pages 263, 264) A relief on a temple wall at Karnak, the north part of the ancient Egyptian city of Thebes, lists numerous cities and villages that Shishak conquered. (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum, Leiden, 1957, Vol. IV, pages 59-60) It is likely that his campaign was not so much to assist the ten tribe kingdom but to gain control of the trade routes located in the territory of that kingdom, thus extending Egypt's power and influence.

Necho[h] was a pharaoh of Egypt, who, according to Herodotus (II, 158, 159; IV, 42) was the son of Psammetichus (Psammetichos, Psamtik I) and succeeded his father as ruler of Egypt. He began construction on a canal linking the Nile with the Red Sea but didn't complete the project, though he did send a Phoenician fleet on a voyage around Africa in three years.

At the close of Josiah's 31 year reign (659 - 629 B.C.E.) he was on his way to help the Assyrians at the river Euphrates. Josiah disregarded "the words of Necho from the mouth of God" and was killed while attempting to turn the Egyptians back at Megiddo. Three months later Necho took Jehoahaz, Josiah's successor, captive and made 25 year old Eliakim his vassal, changing his name to Jehoiakim. He (Necho) also put a heavy fine on Judah. (2 Chronicles 35:20-36:1-4 / 2 Kings 23:29-35) About 3 or 4 years later Necho's forces were defeated at Charchemish at the hands of the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. (Jeremiah 46:2) Pathway Machine | Sience & The Bible: Bible Dating

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.

Again. Evidence of this is?

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  um....did the global flood actually happen?

A: Yes! it says so in the bible!

Q: no, You do realize there is not evidence global wide to reflect the mythical flood, I can dismantle the myth to great length, it never happened, and as per the bible it happened 2349 BCE, when there were other major civilizations in the world that not only didn't get wiped out, but failed to even mention it..odd don't you think? So as the story goes, Noah and his family of 8 set out from the Ark, and repopulated the world right?

A: Yes, it says so in the bible!

Q: no, The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today. *shakes head in pity at the epic ignorance*

First we need to establish how you came upon the date of 2349 then we have to examine how you estimate the population.

(22-04-2015 03:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I've had this basic conversation with probably hundreds of theists.

I have no doubt you have, and I similar pointless exchanges. Thanks for a reasonably thoughtful answer. It was like a breath of fresh air.

You can't be serious. They were liars. And they admitted it :
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2015, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 06:07 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Interview With An Atheist
(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Scholarly reference required. Totally preposterous. No Egyptologist in the entire world agrees with this crap.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.

Numerous dating methods have confirmed archeological finds. This is utterly laughable. Prove it.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Egyptologist Dr. Hans Goedicke of Johns Hopkins University has a nonsensical theory that the Biblical record of the events at the Red Sea and the Exodus coincided with a 1477 B.C.E. volcanic eruption at Thera resulting in a tsunami or tidal wave that drowned the Egyptian forces, but his theory doesn't pay much attention to the Biblical account which mentions no wave.

Irrelevant. There was no Exodus, and the entire thing was made up. We know from the Mernepteh Steele it did not happen.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  The Hyksos period of Egyptian history warrants the same degree of caution and suspicion. Some believe that the Hyksos were a foreign people that gained control of Egypt and place Joseph's and then his family's entry into Egypt as being during that period of the Hyksos rulers, but only on the premise that it would have been more likely for a foreign ruler to have given a non Egyptian the position of second ruler.

Nice cut and paste. You did not write that or document your source. You are a dishonest charlatan. This is where you got it, and it's just as laughable as you are. Not one scholarly reference. Whoever it is, just made all this shit up. http://www.pathwaymachine.com/scripture/...ting.shtml

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  But that theory disagrees with the Bible. Potiphar the court official was an Egyptian (Genesis 39:1) and Joseph was surrounded by native Egyptians. (Genesis 43:32)

Who cares ? The Bible is not true, in any respect.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Josephus, the source of the name Hyksos, accepted some connection between them and the Israelites but argued against many of the details found in Manetho's account. He (Josephus) preferred the term Hyksos as Captive Shepherds rather than Shepherd Kings.

Josephus was in the employ of the Roman emperor, who wrote his book to prove that Vespasian was the messiah. You sure you want to quote him or rely on him ?

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as "northern hordes . . . Sweeping through Palestine and Egypt with swift chariots." Others present them moving as a 'creeping conquest,' a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or semi nomads who slowly took control or as a swift coup d'etat . In The World of the Past, 1963, page 444 archaeologist Jaquetta Hawkes says: "It is no longer thought that the Hyksos rulers . . . represent the invasion of a conquering horde of Asiatics. The name seems to mean Rulers of the Uplands, and they were wandering groups of Semites who had long come to Egypt for trade and other peaceful purposes."

Source ? Prove one word of it. What archaeologists ?

There is no way hundreds of thousands of Jews wandered in the desert as the Bible says, and left not ONE scrap of evidence.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  If the Exodus account can be questioned it is only because the Pharaohs of Egypt didn't make any record of it. That is not unusual. They tended to record only their victories and not their defeats and they tried to erase anything historical that was contrary to their nationalistic image or ideology. Thutmose III, for example, chiseled away inscriptions made of Queen Hatshepsut on a stone monumental record found at Deir al-Bahri in Egypt.

False. That's not the reason he did it.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Jeroboam fled to Egypt to escape Solomon when Shishak ruled (1 Kings 11:40). Later, in the fifth year of Solomon's successor Rehoboam's (933 B.C.E.) Shishak invaded Judah but didn't bring Jerusalem to ruin. (2 Chronicles 12:1-12)

False. The Bible is not evidence of the Bible. There is no evidence that ever happened.

(22-04-2015 04:03 PM)The Theist Wrote:  At the close of Josiah's 31 year reign (659 - 629 B.C.E.) he was on his way to help the Assyrians at the river Euphrates. Josiah disregarded "the words of Necho from the mouth of God" and was killed while attempting to turn the Egyptians back at Megiddo. Three months later Necho took Jehoahaz, Josiah's successor, captive and made 25 year old Eliakim his vassal, changing his name to Jehoiakim. He (Necho) also put a heavy fine on Judah. (2 Chronicles 35:20-36:1-4 / 2 Kings 23:29-35) About 3 or 4 years later Necho's forces were defeated at Charchemish at the hands of the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. (Jeremiah 46:2) Pathway Machine | Sience & The Bible: Bible Dating

Totally false. There is no evidence of that, except the Bible. The Bible is evidence of nothing. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s

I believe one of the previous times you were here, Mr. Theist, I proved that you plagiarized a post from somewhere, and I even proved where you got it.
You are obviously still a lying plagiarizer, and just as ignorant as before.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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