Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
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17-03-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
Gotta hand it to Pope Palpaltine the Last, he knows how to piss people off. I suppose that's to be expected of somebody whose signature's on the document saying "hide the kiddy diddlers."

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17-03-2016, 07:59 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
In the process of my internet wanderings, I came across another article on Ratzie's speech. It posted the full text (translated of course) along with a brief explanation first.
linky

Before I posted this thread originally, I checked out the initial article. The link I gave goes to Newsmax, which seemed pretty secular. That article, however, linked to a LifeSite article which corroborated the first article. This site seemed more church oriented and thus, more reliable in regards to what was said.

However after reading the third article, posted on patheos/catholicism, that translation of the speech does not jive with what the first two articles posted.

In particular:
Quote:Benedict XVI: There is no doubt that on this point we are faced with a profound evolution of dogma. While the fathers and theologians of the Middle Ages could still be of the opinion that, essentially, the whole human race had become Catholic and that paganism existed now only on the margins, the discovery of the New World at the beginning of the modern era radically changed perspectives. In the second half of the last century it has been fully affirmed the understanding that God cannot let go to perdition all the unbaptized and that even a purely natural happiness for them does not represent a real answer to the question of human existence. If it is true that the great missionaries of the 16th century were still convinced that those who are not baptized are forever lost – and this explains their missionary commitment – in the Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council that conviction was finally abandoned.

As far as I can tell, this text says the opposite of what the other two articles posted.

So the parts that particularly outraged me, (i.e. babies burning in hell) were misrepresented.

In any event, I apologize to all parties, including and especially the ex-pope, for anything that I posted that was inaccurate.

As much as I enjoy ranting at the church, I insist that my anger be justified and based on the truth. I shall now console myself with nasty emails to a couple of websites.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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17-03-2016, 08:17 PM
Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
As a former Catholic, I can assure you that despite any Council rulings, many if not most Catholics have always believed that no non-Catholic makes it into heaven.

I'm not surprised by Ratzie saying that. It's very common.
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18-03-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
(17-03-2016 08:17 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  As a former Catholic, I can assure you that despite any Council rulings, many if not most Catholics have always believed that no non-Catholic makes it into heaven.

I'm not surprised by Ratzie saying that. It's very common.

is that belief the reason the catholic church has so many pedo bears ?
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18-03-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
The confusion is very justified. The statement ex ecclesia non salus eat, is considered a matter of doctrine. That being that there is no salvation outside the church.
In the second Vatican council the expanded upon this statement to state that there are two types of church. The visible and invisible. To be part of the visible is to be baptised, this is not a guarantee of heaven but does make it significantly easier to achieve. To be part of the invisible on must be in a state of grace and have charity in their heart. It is through this that people are saved.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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18-03-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
(18-03-2016 09:23 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 08:17 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  As a former Catholic, I can assure you that despite any Council rulings, many if not most Catholics have always believed that no non-Catholic makes it into heaven.

I'm not surprised by Ratzie saying that. It's very common.

is that belief the reason the catholic church has so many pedo bears ?
According to an article by a Jesuit priest I read, it's because seminarians think that becoming a priest somehow strips you of physical urges. For that reason, they abuse themselves to the point where they abuse others.

But... That was his opinion.
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25-03-2016, 07:06 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
(17-03-2016 09:42 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(17-03-2016 09:26 AM)SYZ Wrote:  You left out former Hitlerjugend (Hitler Youth) member.

Here are my opinions on that:

It is my understanding that membership in the HY was not optional.
Although there is no doubt that many did want to participate, not all did so willingly.

I guess because it all happened so long ago, around 75 years, a lot of the truth is lost in the mists of time. Which has undoubtedly let ol' Ratzy remanufacture his story in order to sanitize any of his devious past. From what I've read, a lot of "eligible" young blokes did in fact successfully resist membership of the Hitler Youth, particularly those with anti-Nazi parents who actively supported them.

Both Joseph Ratzinger and his brother, Georg, have claimed that resistance was impossible at the time and, therefore, it was not surprising or morally culpable that they also went along without complaint.

However, this is demonstrably untrue. Firstly, critics say that their claim is an insult to the many others who risked their lives in resisting the Nazi regime, both in organised cells and as individual families. Secondly, there are many examples of those who refused to serve in the Hitler Youth for a variety of reasons, and lived to tell their story.

Whatever the Ratzinger family did or didn't do as passive resistors, and whatever Joseph's father did, it wasn't enough to be arrested or sent to a concentration camp. It doesn't even appear to have been enough to warrant being investigated or detained by the Gestapo. Why did the young Ratzy acquiesce so easily?

So... it's simply not true that resistance was impossible at that time. It could've been difficult, and dangerous, but certainly not impossible. Polish born Karol Jozef Wojtyla (John Paul II) participated in anti-Nazi theatre performances in Poland, and yet there is no evidence of Ratzy even doing this much. Why not? Afraid that his god wouldn't look out for him?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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26-03-2016, 02:12 AM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I guess because it all happened so long ago, around 75 years, a lot of the truth is lost in the mists of time. Which has undoubtedly let ol' Ratzy remanufacture his story in order to sanitize any of his devious past. From what I've read, a lot of "eligible" young blokes did in fact successfully resist membership of the Hitler Youth, particularly those with anti-Nazi parents who actively supported them.

A lot? What were the numbers?

Apart from state and peer pressure keep in mind that from 1936 HY had monopoly on administration of sport infrastructure - those who weren't in could not make use of the sport objects.* This may seem as something not important but coupled with propaganda and lack of real alternatives I think it too played a role.

In 1939 participation was made compulsory with threat of fine and even prison hanging above heads of those unwilling.**

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Both Joseph Ratzinger and his brother, Georg, have claimed that resistance was impossible at the time and, therefore, it was not surprising or morally culpable that they also went along without complaint.

Change it from impossible to hard and there will be no problem. Though it could easily been seen as impossible by them. Who are we to doubt their perceptions without enduring the life in totalitarian state?

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  However, this is demonstrably untrue. Firstly, critics say that their claim is an insult to the many others who risked their lives in resisting the Nazi regime, both in organised cells and as individual families.

How many is many? And what exactly is considered resistance?

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Secondly, there are many examples of those who refused to serve in the Hitler Youth for a variety of reasons, and lived to tell their story.

Let's say that there are indeed many examples but this do not mean that Ratzinger thought that resistance was possible.

Also I think you're over dramatizing the issue - for failing to get into HY were fines or prison not death sentence so it's not like those who refused lived to tell the tale. Not even refusing to shot Jews during the war was punished by death which is part of the reason that we just followed orders defense didn't held.

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Whatever the Ratzinger family did or didn't do as passive resistors, and whatever Joseph's father did, it wasn't enough to be arrested or sent to a concentration camp. It doesn't even appear to have been enough to warrant being investigated or detained by the Gestapo. Why did the young Ratzy acquiesce so easily?

You do realize that Gestapo contrary to popular rumors wasn't omniscient organization with limitless resources and agents everywhere? Not every German was investigated.

Also why do you think that young Ratzinger acquiesced easily? It's not like his refusal weren't going to have no consequences. He did live in totalitarian state.

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  So... it's simply not true that resistance was impossible at that time.

One could argue that resistance never is impossible, but possible do not mean meaningful.

(25-03-2016 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  It could've been difficult, and dangerous, but certainly not impossible.

And what would he achieve with such? Risks should be measured against gains.

*Richard Evans, The Third Reich in Power s. 263 of Polish edition.
**Evans, ibd.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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26-03-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
There was a huge pressure to join the HJ , and no way for you to make a meaningful career (at university, in the military, public service) in any relevant part of the society.

Here is an article, explaining the background of Ratzingers membership: HJ

I will try to sum up the important points (leave it up to your personal investigation if you need confirmation)
  • Ratzinger joined seminary in 1939. This seminary was anti Nazi, and had to face a lot of reprisals
  • In 1939 not a single member of the semainary was in the HJ
  • It was not forbidden to join the HJ (from church side), but was clear what was expected from everyone (see above)
  • In March 1941 it became law that all 14y and above have to join the HJ. Ratzinger turned 14 the same year
  • His seminary tried to delay membership of the students as much as possible, until they had to give in later in that year, in October.
  • His father also was pressured to accept this, because he was on a small pension (240RM), and it became harder to keep Joseph in seminary, because financial support depended on membership of HJ. Financial support was cut down from 550 to 450 Reichsmark per year. Thats almost half a months pension of his dad.
  • The NSDAP, knowing that there is a difference between willingly joining the HJ and just obeying the law, did not increase the financial support again immediately, but one had to prove himself to become a real "Hitlerjunge". It was basically a 2 class system since 1941.

So while his morals as a church leader (see his quotes) are questionable, the facts seem to indicate that he and his family tried to steer clear of naziism as far as they could.
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26-03-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: Interview with Pope Emeritus Benedict
(26-03-2016 02:42 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  There was a huge pressure to join the HJ , and no way for you to make a meaningful career (at university, in the military, public service) in any relevant part of the society.

Here is an article, explaining the background of Ratzingers membership: HJ

I will try to sum up the important points (leave it up to your personal investigation if you need confirmation)
  • Ratzinger joined seminary in 1939. This seminary was anti Nazi, and had to face a lot of reprisals
  • In 1939 not a single member of the semainary was in the HJ
  • It was not forbidden to join the HJ (from church side), but was clear what was expected from everyone (see above)
  • In March 1941 it became law that all 14y and above have to join the HJ. Ratzinger turned 14 the same year
  • His seminary tried to delay membership of the students as much as possible, until they had to give in later in that year, in October.
  • His father also was pressured to accept this, because he was on a small pension (240RM), and it became harder to keep Joseph in seminary, because financial support depended on membership of HJ. Financial support was cut down from 550 to 450 Reichsmark per year. Thats almost half a months pension of his dad.
  • The NSDAP, knowing that there is a difference between willingly joining the HJ and just obeying the law, did not increase the financial support again immediately, but one had to prove himself to become a real "Hitlerjunge". It was basically a 2 class system since 1941.

So while his morals as a church leader (see his quotes) are questionable, the facts seem to indicate that he and his family tried to steer clear of naziism as far as they could.

Thank you for posting this. it's a problem I have too. There's so much this man is truly responsible for that's just evil, there's absolutely zero reason to further malign his character with things that aren't.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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