Intro
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-10-2012, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2012 10:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Intro
(25-10-2012 05:29 PM)Hope Wrote:  My husband has been tolerating me as best as possible, he did share something with me this morning that surprised me, that he holds onto believing in the bible just to save his ass from hell!

Any promise or threat of a postmortem preservation of identity is utter and complete bullshit. The only heavens and hells are the ones we create for ourselves, right here, right now.

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
25-10-2012, 11:36 PM
RE: Intro
(25-10-2012 05:29 PM)Hope Wrote:  My husband has been tolerating me as best as possible, he did share something with me this morning that surprised me, that he holds onto believing in the bible just to save his ass from hell!

That's... surprisingly honest. And kinda ass backwards. The Bible is the only thing telling him there is a hell in the first place. Still. Hard to give up on that eternal life you've been looking forward to, even if you think it's probably bullshit. I mean, once you come out as an atheist there is *no doubt* that if there is an afterlife as described a la bible, then you're severely fucked, whereas if you still pretend to believe then maybe God won't notice and let you into heaven even though you know it's a bullshit story but it's scary to think of dying and going to hell...

Rambling.

Fear is a very effective tool for the church (any church). It's not just about making people believe, but even those with doubts will not voice them in a group situation if you get the fear dynamic just right... As long as they *act* like they believe, it's not really important in terms of authority and power, whether they do actually believe... as long as they are very careful to only express their doubts privately...

I admire you for having the courage to change at this late stage, when all the social pressure is to shut up and conform. Your kids one day will hopefully thank you, because you are giving them an incredible opportunity.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Intro
(25-10-2012 08:42 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 01:56 PM)Hope Wrote:  I believe you understand me perfectly.

Reading this really helped what was looking to be a pretty depressing day and really helped me build some perspective on what is to come, sometimes it is difficult to see outside of today.

I am feeling like an ass- I have wanted to bash my head against the wall repeatedly!

It's one thing to be raised in the mormon church and not know anything different and slowly climbing your way out, but for me to turn around dragging my children and husband with me into just another mess!

I am overwhelmed to say the least with guilt and outrage at the stupidity of excepting another "faith".

I have yet to tell my children....I just can't imagine how they will ever look at me and see anything but a confused mess of a mother!

I can see clearly why I ran to another "faith"....my husband of 20 years wasn't joining me and had lied to me for years, how could I trust him.

I had all family members eating me down to nothing as well as so called friends in the mormon church....

I ran to a christian church hoping to find the so called truth!
I was loved and sympathized with and an emotional mess to say the least I wished for death daily!

But still I made a choice and it was wrong!

The most rewarding part about excepting Atheism is realizing I want to live and I want to live more than ever- I see the faces of my children and who they are and not what they need to be.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share with me- It will always been remembered.

Hope,

It's very easy to feel this way, upset or angry or disappointed or feel betrayal. Instead of being mad at yourself or at others, keep in mind that most people that believe, usually believe what they are doing is sincerely correct. I know that when I was a Christian, I actually felt like what I was doing "was right" and anyone who was different "just wasn't" - and most would tell you that's how most are taught to feel. If you really look at mass scale religion, and look at the breakdown of what a cult is and the support structure, you'll find it mostly fits it to the T.

- Thought reform and insertion of new support structure
- Doctrine
- Isolation from outside ideas, or conversion of ideas to fit new ideas (confirmation bias)
- Dependency on the organization
- Anxiety, fear, panic if left from the organization

Naturally with any cult, whether it be some backwoods cult, small town cult, or major religion, these are common. People feel like there is a new way of thinking, a new support structure is inserted and of course, outside ideas are viewed as betrayal to the group. People are cut off, shunned and sometimes vilified if they attempt to leave the group. The doctrine generally also includes just as much thought process to anxiety, fear and hatred towards the idea of leaving the group, as it does pink fluffy clouds and butterflies. So of course it is natural as a human being, to feel fear and anxiety when one breaks away. It can be TERRIFYING. After all, we're taught that we'll burn in hell forever, or receive eternal torment and other horrible things depending on what a person was taught. "You wouldn't want that!" they tell us.

So it is natural as a person leaves religion to feel these things. One could never tell another religious person, "You're in a cult!" as they don't see it as such, since they are indoctrinated. And of course, just as I was, and just as you were, felt the same when we were indoctrinated as well.

Once you leave, it is also natural to be upset at those that tricked us, deceived us... but some of them, perhaps even all of them, thought they were not doing any such thing.

So of course it is very easy to be upset with yourself, or with others. The largest problem though is that once you've taken the exit door from religion and stepped out into reality, you suddenly see it from a VERY different perspective, and everyone else still haven't left the building.

I have to constantly remind myself when my family tries to witness to me or try and convince me to return to their little jesus cult that they still believe it sincerely. Afterall, it is easier for me to put myself in their shoes now, since I know how it felt, than it is for them to put theirselves in my shoes since they can't think of it any other way other than what they know.

It is very easy indeed to want to just tell everyone at once, "HEY! This religion thing is crap! you people are nuts!" - but of course, the last thing you likely want is to sever relationships and friends and family. If you do tell them and they are still indoctrinated, I would say to be very careful about it. But be aware that once you tell people, it is likely that people will definitely see you differently.

Instead of taking the attitude of wanting to debate with every theist I've ran across, I have slowly adapted the attitude that I am in charge of my life. I am in charge of my attitude. I am a good person, I can be a good person because I want to be. I figure if I live my life as a good example to others, such a stigma of a name or a title... "Atheist"... may change their mind about how they view us, rather than breaking the news to them abruptly. Some people I don't even tell at all.

I think you're on a good road to realization from what it sounds like. But trenching through the mud, the resentment, the crap and everything you went through, and trying to find all the good things and the view that is positive is not an overnight change. But that's ok, because I would rather have become an atheist where I'm at in life now, knowing what I know, than lived my life never seeing life the way I see it now.

That said, you may find some comfort in the following videos, since it sounds as if you could use some positive reinforcement Smile

We are here to help, and happy to offer support. Many of us have been there.
We also have a thread for those who need a positive break from stuff
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...iness-Hope








Logisch- Thank you for the positive reinforcement! I spent some time last night reading others experiences and recovery from religion which helped immensely.

If no change in reality can change your belief - Then your belief is not based on anything in reality
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: Intro
(25-10-2012 11:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 05:29 PM)Hope Wrote:  My husband has been tolerating me as best as possible, he did share something with me this morning that surprised me, that he holds onto believing in the bible just to save his ass from hell!

That's... surprisingly honest. And kinda ass backwards. The Bible is the only thing telling him there is a hell in the first place. Still. Hard to give up on that eternal life you've been looking forward to, even if you think it's probably bullshit. I mean, once you come out as an atheist there is *no doubt* that if there is an afterlife as described a la bible, then you're severely fucked, whereas if you still pretend to believe then maybe God won't notice and let you into heaven even though you know it's a bullshit story but it's scary to think of dying and going to hell...

Rambling.

Fear is a very effective tool for the church (any church). It's not just about making people believe, but even those with doubts will not voice them in a group situation if you get the fear dynamic just right... As long as they *act* like they believe, it's not really important in terms of authority and power, whether they do actually believe... as long as they are very careful to only express their doubts privately...

I admire you for having the courage to change at this late stage, when all the social pressure is to shut up and conform. Your kids one day will hopefully thank you, because you are giving them an incredible opportunity.

morondog- please feel free to ramble anytime!
My husband- asked a question this morning about faith or a belief in god and why it is wrong to have that imaginary friend someone you can always talk to, if it makes him feel better and not alone why is it not okay for him to continue in this so called relationship with his imaginary friend god.
He doesn't see how having no belief can be of any good.

If no change in reality can change your belief - Then your belief is not based on anything in reality
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2012, 10:27 AM
RE: Intro
(26-10-2012 10:19 AM)Hope Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 11:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  That's... surprisingly honest. And kinda ass backwards. The Bible is the only thing telling him there is a hell in the first place. Still. Hard to give up on that eternal life you've been looking forward to, even if you think it's probably bullshit. I mean, once you come out as an atheist there is *no doubt* that if there is an afterlife as described a la bible, then you're severely fucked, whereas if you still pretend to believe then maybe God won't notice and let you into heaven even though you know it's a bullshit story but it's scary to think of dying and going to hell...

Rambling.

Fear is a very effective tool for the church (any church). It's not just about making people believe, but even those with doubts will not voice them in a group situation if you get the fear dynamic just right... As long as they *act* like they believe, it's not really important in terms of authority and power, whether they do actually believe... as long as they are very careful to only express their doubts privately...

I admire you for having the courage to change at this late stage, when all the social pressure is to shut up and conform. Your kids one day will hopefully thank you, because you are giving them an incredible opportunity.

morondog- please feel free to ramble anytime!
My husband- asked a question this morning about faith or a belief in god and why it is wrong to have that imaginary friend someone you can always talk to, if it makes him feel better and not alone why is it not okay for him to continue in this so called relationship with his imaginary friend god.
He doesn't see how having no belief can be of any good.

I would say it's a matter of self-respect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
26-10-2012, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2012 03:47 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: Intro
(26-10-2012 10:19 AM)Hope Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 11:36 PM)morondog Wrote:  That's... surprisingly honest. And kinda ass backwards. The Bible is the only thing telling him there is a hell in the first place. Still. Hard to give up on that eternal life you've been looking forward to, even if you think it's probably bullshit. I mean, once you come out as an atheist there is *no doubt* that if there is an afterlife as described a la bible, then you're severely fucked, whereas if you still pretend to believe then maybe God won't notice and let you into heaven even though you know it's a bullshit story but it's scary to think of dying and going to hell...

Rambling.

Fear is a very effective tool for the church (any church). It's not just about making people believe, but even those with doubts will not voice them in a group situation if you get the fear dynamic just right... As long as they *act* like they believe, it's not really important in terms of authority and power, whether they do actually believe... as long as they are very careful to only express their doubts privately...

I admire you for having the courage to change at this late stage, when all the social pressure is to shut up and conform. Your kids one day will hopefully thank you, because you are giving them an incredible opportunity.

morondog- please feel free to ramble anytime!
My husband- asked a question this morning about faith or a belief in god and why it is wrong to have that imaginary friend someone you can always talk to, if it makes him feel better and not alone why is it not okay for him to continue in this so called relationship with his imaginary friend god.
He doesn't see how having no belief can be of any good.


Because life can be just as rich or MORE. Your accomplishments are *yours*, your decisions are in *your* hands and you're not lying. Believing in something you know could or is not true is living a lie- that can't feel happy or authentic. It's a skeleton in the closet in itself. That's why I had to be truthful about it. Honesty is a big deal to me and I hope that for everyone because there is comfort and reliability in it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like LadyJane's post
27-10-2012, 02:16 AM
RE: Intro
It's not wrong to have an imaginary friend if you feel it's helpful.

But once you admit he's imaginary... what's the point? If everyone prefixed the word 'imaginary' to the word God in every sentence... do you think they could really keep up with all the prayers, the onerous stupid shit you have to do as a religious person, like happy songs in praise of imaginary God? I'd go potty. I am potty anyway. Bad argument.

The thing I don't like about imaginary friends, especially imaginary friends who's existence is bought into by a huge load of people, is the way that those who speak for the said imaginary friend have access to a huge reserve of power...

To me, the positive of jettisoning such beliefs, or at least a big positive, is the immediate security of not having to follow the crowd. You no longer have to believe what the big man on top says, because it's clear that he's just speaking for the imaginary friend, and therefore the words and intent are supplied from his brain. And therefore imaginary friend is no wiser than any single human being, and probably stupider, because the speaker-for-the-imaginary has to ensure that imaginary God conforms to the group's perception of how he should act...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
27-10-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: Intro
I have an imaginary friend - my late husband.

Sometimes when I run into issues and am thinking: "What now?" I can more or less "hear" his input.

I know that is because I know him so well that I already know what he would do or say. And he is not actually out there - he just exists in my brain, the result of his being part of my thought processes for 30 years.

I thought about it and decided there was nothing wrong with that. I imagine over time my brain will produce his input less and less, as no new experiences are added.

Now, the imaginary friend "god" is a similar thing I think. Believers have been conditioned all their life to listen for the voice of "god", and to think about whether god would approve of their actions.

No wonder people "hear" "god's" input at times. It's carved into their brains, over and over and over...

And like my husband, this should slowly fade by itself if no new "god" experiences are added...

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
27-10-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Intro
My personal attitude about imaginary friends are simple. I have no need, or desire to have an imaginary friend, but if others are too insecure to deal with the reality which is evident then that is their choice. I don't really care what they do personally so long as they do not try to push their morals and religious dogma onto me. When they do, even after being warned, I am not above attacking them on their irrationality. They generally leave you alone after that. I do sympathize with your situation however, you are in a bit of a predicament. I wish I could tell you what I would do in your situation, but I have no idea. Your words and actions have much greater consequences than mine do. I do not see an easy way out. I know you still deeply care for your children, and probably your husband as well, but at the same time do not want them to continue down a road of wasting their only lives in fear of a skydaddy, trying to please him, and saving their eternal skins from a benevolent ruler's condemnation at the same time. Unfortunately, you must choose to either alienate them in an attempt to prevent this, or go with the flow and see them restrained their entire lives with no good reason. Whatever you choose we will be here to talk with, and I don't think many of us (certainly not me) will judge you harshly for either decision. Best of luck.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-10-2012, 09:10 PM
RE: Intro

If no change in reality can change your belief - Then your belief is not based on anything in reality
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: