Intro -- from a Christian :)
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08-12-2012, 08:05 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 02:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 02:01 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I could go for a Double Double right now. Too bad I don't live in Cali Anymore. Weeping
I always go and ask for one. A double vegie with no bun. They look at me like "WTF ?"

Hey! Down in front! This is *my* intro thread! Get the sidebars completed now!

Smile
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08-12-2012, 08:11 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 08:05 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 02:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I always go and ask for one. A double vegie with no bun. They look at me like "WTF ?"

Hey! Down in front! This is *my* intro thread! Get the sidebars completed now!

Smile
Best get used to hijackings now.

It'll never end.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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08-12-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 07:24 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Phil_GA, as you can see.... once the YEC bomb is dropped, most people won't take you seriously. No one here likes YEC because to adopt YEC and a young universe no one has yet to explain anything rational without ignoring all of adopted cosmology and science (and that's very absurd).

For instance... if you can go snag a telescope and faintly see andromeda (we're talking a telescope you can buy as a hobbyist, not the hubble), the light from andromeda is approximately 2.5 million light years away. It took the medium of that light (photons) 2.5 million years (and probably then some) to travel this far out. How does one "explain that away" as a YEC?

How does one explain away all of geology that has adopted dating techniques that use not just one but multiple different radiometric dating?

How does one explain away the big bang? (At least, I have yet to meet a YEC that agrees with it, since most YEC types seem to get their age of the universe from "the age of the bible").

The derailment was definitely inevitable but I will attempt to "get it back on the rails" if the rest of the crew is willing to be serious. After all, you at least bothered to entertain some of the questions. But as you can see, if people are unwilling to discuss seriously, or omit things, or just even give a hint of intellectual dishonesty... you'll be ignored, or derailed constantly. Many of us won't do this (I try not to, sometimes I'm guilty) but it's hard to take people seriously when they ignore constant questions and feel like they "need to size things up" as if somehow they feel like there is going to be something worthy of sizing up.

People ask questions, people answer, we discuss. Poo is flung. People discuss the poo. People disagree. Or agree to disagree. But if you cannot back these things up, if you're unwilling to discuss, then why bother coming here? Tossing out the "Hey I'm a christian and on most forums i'm pretty much the shit" is pretty good bait for "Hey come debate me." so don't expect at all in any way shape or form to "have a break" if you post. People will bombard you will questions until you cough it up.

Not being an ass. Just being blunt.

As soon as I saw this, I prioritized to respond now and let the other comments wait for later.

The below is my current viewpoint and is subject to change.

Years ago, when my dad was alive (he was my best friend and theological sparring partner and believed even more strongly than me), he held the viewpoint (basically) that earth was approximately 15.1 billion years old -- give or take a billion.

I began questioning this in earnest based on the 6-day biblical account, where the Hebrew word used for "day" is completely contingent on the surrounding context to give it meaning.

Next, I believe also in Genesis that death did not occur until humans sinned and fell from (essentially) paradise. I believe that humans were designed to not die and that's why death is such an intense experience/issue.

Now, here's where the key for me RE: earth/universe age is concerned and is a culmination (of course) of a bunch of research, which we can further look at maybe later.

In short and very generally, I believe that physical processes were initiated by God *as if they had already been processing* for many years. To put another way, think of half-life as usual in process, but with an unusual start.

Once again, I have overgeneralized, but I thought your comment was more than worth at least a basic, starter response to what I'm fascinated is a rather controversial topic.
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08-12-2012, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 09:05 AM by Logisch.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
And how do you "know" these things?

It's not controversial at all, because your response ignores every adopted theory and accepted branch of science to simply explain things away with "god did it" or he "just made it in motion" - yet you don't state how you come to this conclusion, and why you would rather use this explanation than perhaps even "god used the big bang" or something that doesn't require explaining things away to explain other things away to explain other things away.

This is a god of the gaps, argument from ignorance or special pleading (or you can call it all the above).

You can "believe" things all you want, but it simply doesn't make them true.

So please state why and how you "know" these things?

PS: Here's a picture of the hubble extreme-deep field. 13.2 BILLION years ago. Finished september of this year. Only millions of years after the big bang. This is what the universe looked like. You'll have to excuse me if your explanation sounds incredulous.
[Image: Hubble_Extreme_Deep_Field_%28full_resolution%29.png]

And in case you don't understand the concept (Even though it's all there on the page I linked) a visual:
[Image: Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field_diagram.jpg]
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08-12-2012, 10:03 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 06:47 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Hello Phil, welcome to TTA.

I've got a couple questions for you.

Regarding YEC
(01.) Have you ever looked at the scientific evidence that supports the theory that both the Earth and the universe are billions of years old?
(02.) What scientific evidence do you have for the YEC hypothesis that the Earth and the universe are merely 6.000-10.000 years old?
(03.) What is your solution to the starlight problem?

Regarding your belief in god
(04.) What scientific evidence do you have to support the hypothesis that the Christian god Yahweh exists?
(05.) When and why did you start believing in god in the first place?
(06.) Why don't you believe in the existence of any other gods, such as the Islamic god Allah?

Regarding the Bible
(07.) How do you rationalize the numerous internal contradictions that can be found in the Bible?
(08.) What evidence do you have to support the hypothesis that Jesus resurrected three days after his crucifixion?
(09.) How do you rationalize the contradicting accounts of the New Testament events described in the four gospels?
(10.) Do you think the Bible is inerrant or inspired?

I recommend you to watch at least these two parts of the debate between YEC Kent Hovind and OEC Dr. Hugh Ross. If you want to watch the whole thing, just say so and I'll post the link.






1. Yes, absolutely, and much is very compelling and fascinating to me.

2. and 3. Proper answers are in my view beyond the scope of this intro thread. Besides that, I'd have to go back and re-research the academic basis of my viewpoints (sorry, I have decent recall, but not that good).

4. Very short partial answer: I don't think the natural realm just showed up by itself at one point in the past.

5. I knew to know that there was a God when I was 12. I essentially accepted communion (not the beard/wine type) with him at the time. Then, my church at the time required me to basically understand my faith prior to getting baptized. I accomplished this so well I could have taught the class and so was baptized at 13. It would only be after that that I would delve into the rationale for my faith.

6. Um, actually, I do believe that, at the very least, the perception of other gods does, in fact, exist. In other words, since I know individuals must put faith in something, then sometimes to some people some god is always better than no god.

7. Way out of scope for this thread. I think we'll pick up on such topics over time here in the forum.

8. Sorry, but refer to answer 7. on this at this time.

9. We'll likely get into this soon enough.

10. I think the Bible is inspired.
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08-12-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 06:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  Welcome Smile

Putting the fun in fundamentalist eh ?

Since you self identify as a fundamentalist, could you state your position on
a. homosexuality
b. abortion
c. ... um... elbows

? (ninja edit to add question mark)...

feel free to supply reasons if you so desire Smile

Thx for the welcome. Love the questions. Looking forward to returning the favor.

A. I've concluded that homosexuality is an intensely personal and exceptionally self-gratifying version of sexuality that only ever accounts for itself. And while I'm veering into the controversial, this isn't any different than adultery for married couples in terms of negative impact on individuals involved.

To be perfectly blunt, I believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

And before anyone goes off on those blatant comments, just take a chill pill. I'm not homophobic - I don't fear anyone who's gay. I simply disagree with the lifestyle.

B. I'm the father of two kids, and observed each of them thru all three trimesters. Therefore I'm a bit biased. I'm pro-choice for life Smile

C. I'll try not to take up too much of anyone's personal space Smile
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08-12-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 07:29 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 07:19 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  1. It depends. Humans are teleologically-based beings.
What do you mean by that?

In a simple sense, I mean that humans are capable of goal-setting. Therefore, one could begin to make the case for a certain amount of personal determinism on account of said goals being set and actions executed towards same.
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08-12-2012, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 10:21 AM by Vera.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Thx for the welcome. Love the questions. Looking forward to returning the favor.

A. I've concluded that homosexuality is an intensely personal and exceptionally self-gratifying version of sexuality that only ever accounts for itself. And while I'm veering into the controversial, this isn't any different than adultery for married couples in terms of negative impact on individuals involved.

To be perfectly blunt, I believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

And before anyone goes off on those blatant comments, just take a chill pill. I'm not homophobic - I don't fear anyone who's gay. I simply disagree with the lifestyle.
I'm sorry, I don't normally do this, but yes, you are homophobic (it doesn't have to be fear ) and also extremely bigoted. I've heard a lot of crap about homosexuality, but this would go in the Top 5, no questions asked.

Simply disgusting.

And no, I'm not gay.

PS. Also, there are gay women, so the Adam and Steve 'joke' was just dumb.

As for the other stuff (read YEC) - it is beyond ridiculous, not even worth discussing. How any person with at least a rudimentary capacity for thought can actually believe this, is beyond me.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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08-12-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 06:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  Welcome Smile

Putting the fun in fundamentalist eh ?

Since you self identify as a fundamentalist, could you state your position on
a. homosexuality
b. abortion
c. ... um... elbows

? (ninja edit to add question mark)...

feel free to supply reasons if you so desire Smile

Thx for the welcome. Love the questions. Looking forward to returning the favor.

A. I've concluded that homosexuality is an intensely personal and exceptionally self-gratifying version of sexuality that only ever accounts for itself. And while I'm veering into the controversial, this isn't any different than adultery for married couples in terms of negative impact on individuals involved.

To be perfectly blunt, I believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

And before anyone goes off on those blatant comments, just take a chill pill. I'm not homophobic - I don't fear anyone who's gay. I simply disagree with the lifestyle.

B. I'm the father of two kids, and observed each of them thru all three trimesters. Therefore I'm a bit biased. I'm pro-choice for life Smile

C. I'll try not to take up too much of anyone's personal space Smile
So Do animals willingly decide to have a negative impact on others as well? Should I get a divorce since the neighbor's dog is gay? Do animals have the ability to choose as well? I thought animals "didn't have free will"?

Should we condemn them for having similar traits of the opposite sex? I mean, how do they consciously decide to change the anatomy of their body like that!? Consider

I mean, it isn't like we've made some sort of empirical progress towards understanding their brain structure or anything. It's clear that these people must definitely choose to have different brains right?
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08-12-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 08:42 AM)Logisch Wrote:  And how do you "know" these things?

It's not controversial at all, because your response ignores every adopted theory and accepted branch of science to simply explain things away with "god did it" or he "just made it in motion" - yet you don't state how you come to this conclusion, and why you would rather use this explanation than perhaps even "god used the big bang" or something that doesn't require explaining things away to explain other things away to explain other things away.

This is a god of the gaps, argument from ignorance or special pleading (or you can call it all the above).

You can "believe" things all you want, but it simply doesn't make them true.

So please state why and how you "know" these things?

PS: Here's a picture of the hubble extreme-deep field. 13.2 BILLION years ago. Finished september of this year. Only millions of years after the big bang. This is what the universe looked like. You'll have to excuse me if your explanation sounds incredulous.
[Image: Hubble_Extreme_Deep_Field_%28full_resolution%29.png]

And in case you don't understand the concept (Even though it's all there on the page I linked) a visual:
[Image: Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field_diagram.jpg]

As I've stated many times before, this is an intro thread. I'm simply not going to be able to adequately answer (especially to the 100% complete satisfaction of some) every question posed to me here.

It's flattering to think I could do this immediately, but it's not going to happen. Rather, I'm here to discuss and, over time, present my reasoning with what I think is reasonable evidence for my beliefs.

Also remember: I'm merely an IT guy with a layman's understanding of Christianity. But I'll still push forward regardless.
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