Intro -- from a Christian :)
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08-12-2012, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 10:32 AM by Logisch.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:21 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 08:42 AM)Logisch Wrote:  And how do you "know" these things?

It's not controversial at all, because your response ignores every adopted theory and accepted branch of science to simply explain things away with "god did it" or he "just made it in motion" - yet you don't state how you come to this conclusion, and why you would rather use this explanation than perhaps even "god used the big bang" or something that doesn't require explaining things away to explain other things away to explain other things away.

This is a god of the gaps, argument from ignorance or special pleading (or you can call it all the above).

You can "believe" things all you want, but it simply doesn't make them true.

So please state why and how you "know" these things?

PS: Here's a picture of the hubble extreme-deep field. 13.2 BILLION years ago. Finished september of this year. Only millions of years after the big bang. This is what the universe looked like. You'll have to excuse me if your explanation sounds incredulous.
[Image: Hubble_Extreme_Deep_Field_%28full_resolution%29.png]

And in case you don't understand the concept (Even though it's all there on the page I linked) a visual:
[Image: Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field_diagram.jpg]

As I've stated many times before, this is an intro thread. I'm simply not going to be able to adequately answer (especially to the 100% complete satisfaction of some) every question posed to me here.

It's flattering to think I could do this immediately, but it's not going to happen. Rather, I'm here to discuss and, over time, present my reasoning with what I think is reasonable evidence for my beliefs.

Also remember: I'm merely an IT guy with a layman's understanding of Christianity. But I'll still push forward regardless.
Maybe because you don't have any good evidence to support it. Otherwise, you'd state it.

This being an intro thread does not hold you back from answering anything any more than any other thread or section. You not answering questions is you being unwilling to answer them. We're not holding you back. You're holding yourself back.

If you cannot clearly respond about your stance on something, perhaps you do not understand it well enough. That's not my problem, that's yours. I think the bible said something about that. Oh yes... here it is...
Quote:But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 Peter 3:15).

Even though I obviously don't follow the bible. Seems pretty logical to be able to back up your beliefs and explain them well, unless you don't understand them well.
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08-12-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  B. I'm the father of two kids, and observed each of them thru all three trimesters. Therefore I'm a bit biased. I'm pro-choice for life Smile
Pro-life, eh?

What about this life?

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08-12-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:31 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 10:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  B. I'm the father of two kids, and observed each of them thru all three trimesters. Therefore I'm a bit biased. I'm pro-choice for life Smile
Pro-life, eh?

What about this life?

Well, for me, the answer is very simple (though the actual application is extremely intense), and my wife and I totally agree.

I am married to my wife and nobody else. Therefore, if one of my unborn children and she were in a position such as the linked article describes, while I'd encourage the doctor to do everything in their power to help both, then I'd immediately say that my wife takes precedence.

I would further encourage anyone who reads this response that, should they disagree, they need to present evidence for why they think I'm wrong, because I think I'm pretty darn morally right on this one.
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08-12-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  1. Yes, absolutely, and much is very compelling and fascinating to me.

2. and 3. Proper answers are in my view beyond the scope of this intro thread. Besides that, I'd have to go back and re-research the academic basis of my viewpoints (sorry, I have decent recall, but not that good).
All right, feel free to make a thread about it at any time.

(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  4. Very short partial answer: I don't think the natural realm just showed up by itself at one point in the past.
With all due respect, I don't think that you've understood my question correctly. I was asking you for scientific evidence that supports the belief in your particular deity. The answer you have given me is neither scientific, nor does it point towards the existence of the Christian god Yahweh specifically. Any other religious person, whether he is a Muslim, a Hindu or a Mormon, would have been able to give me the exact same answer.

With that said, you did state that this is only a very short and partial answer, so I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that wait for you to elaborate on your position. Your current answer is, unfortunately, nothing but an argument from incredulity.

(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  5. I knew to know that there was a God when I was 12. I essentially accepted communion (not the beard/wine type) with him at the time. Then, my church at the time required me to basically understand my faith prior to getting baptized. I accomplished this so well I could have taught the class and so was baptized at 13. It would only be after that that I would delve into the rationale for my faith.
Were you confronted with the concept of supernatural deities prior to the age of 12? How did you know that god (which god?) existed at that time? How did you know that there aren't multiple gods?

(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  6. Um, actually, I do believe that, at the very least, the perception of other gods does, in fact, exist. In other words, since I know individuals must put faith in something, then sometimes to some people some god is always better than no god.
That is, again, not what I was aiming at with my question. I asked you for the reason you don't believe in any gods other than the Christian god Yahweh, not whether or not you believe that the adherents of other religions have perceptions of god that differ from yours.

(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  7. Way out of scope for this thread. I think we'll pick up on such topics over time here in the forum.

8. Sorry, but refer to answer 7. on this at this time.

9. We'll likely get into this soon enough.
See my answer to 1-3.

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08-12-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:42 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  I would further encourage anyone who reads this response that, should they disagree, they need to present evidence for why they think I'm wrong, because I think I'm pretty darn morally right on this one.
Morality is entirely subjective. There are objective tools that you can use to arrive at your set of morals, but the standard by which you judge the rightness and wrongness of an action remains an individual choice. Arguing about morality is akin to arguing about different tastes of music or art, as there are no facts to support either position, but merely the opinions of individuals. For this reason, it is impossible to present you with evidence to show that you're right or wrong.

Sure, you're "pretty darn morally right [sic]" on this issue according to your set of morality, but you sure as hell aren't according to mine and that of other people.

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08-12-2012, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 11:13 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:03 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  10. I think the Bible is inspired.
The problem is not "inspiration". For Fundies the problem is canon formation. No author or early community ever claimed "inspiration" for their texts. There is no "mechanism" for "inspiration", and no legitimate scholar even talks about it. Every text that ended up in the Babble was VOTED, non-unanimously into the canon. Every line was written by humans, then translated and mis-translated.

As far as YEC goes, there are many dating methods, all which agree that that the Earth is billions of years old. For them all to agree both forwards and backwards is so improbable, that the number is astoundingly small. No legitimate scientist even begins to agree with this absolute crap. Any YEC'er would get laughed out of the room. This is too pathetic to even waste 5 seconds on. Anyone who espouses YECism in 2012 is a complete joke.

This is a forum for educated adults, not idiots.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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08-12-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Thx for the welcome. Love the questions. Looking forward to returning the favor.

A. I've concluded that homosexuality is an intensely personal and exceptionally self-gratifying version of sexuality that only ever accounts for itself. And while I'm veering into the controversial, this isn't any different than adultery for married couples in terms of negative impact on individuals involved.

To be perfectly blunt, I believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

And before anyone goes off on those blatant comments, just take a chill pill. I'm not homophobic - I don't fear anyone who's gay. I simply disagree with the lifestyle.

B. I'm the father of two kids, and observed each of them thru all three trimesters. Therefore I'm a bit biased. I'm pro-choice for life Smile

C. I'll try not to take up too much of anyone's personal space Smile
I have a friend who has almost this exact same position.

Based on your answers, would you
a. be friends with a gay man ?
b. support gay marriage ?
c. make homosexual acts illegal ?
d. make adultery illegal ?

Under what circumstances is abortion allowable? Rape, the life of the mother is threatened, for economic reasons, any other you can think of ? Under what circumstances is abortion a sin ? Under what circumstances would you think it's logical for it to be legal ?

I'm asking you nasty questions here... the kind that tend to get people riled if you give 'em an answer they don't like. I'd hope that you'd just say it like it is. I won't promise not to wail and gnash my teeth myself though... or at least to follow up with questions like 'why the hell would you think that ?' Wink
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08-12-2012, 11:13 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 10:24 AM)Logisch Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 10:21 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  As I've stated many times before, this is an intro thread. I'm simply not going to be able to adequately answer (especially to the 100% complete satisfaction of some) every question posed to me here.

It's flattering to think I could do this immediately, but it's not going to happen. Rather, I'm here to discuss and, over time, present my reasoning with what I think is reasonable evidence for my beliefs.

Also remember: I'm merely an IT guy with a layman's understanding of Christianity. But I'll still push forward regardless.
Maybe because you don't have any good evidence to support it. Otherwise, you'd state it.

This being an intro thread does not hold you back from answering anything any more than any other thread or section. You not answering questions is you being unwilling to answer them. We're not holding you back. You're holding yourself back.

If you cannot clearly respond about your stance on something, perhaps you do not understand it well enough. That's not my problem, that's yours. I think the bible said something about that. Oh yes... here it is...
Quote:But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 Peter 3:15).

Even though I obviously don't follow the bible. Seems pretty logical to be able to back up your beliefs and explain them well, unless you don't understand them well.

The anti Bible thumper thumper! Love it!

I don't think I ever said that I don't know why I believe why I believe. And the verse you're using doesn't say anything about *when* said answer should be given.

I willingly am not going to answer every question posed to me for a number of reasons, including the following:

1. I maintain that this is an intro thread. In-depth discussions should be held in their proper places;

2. Some topics, such as universe beginnings, I haven't actively studied in a few years. Therefore, such a discussion, while important, may not take place with me for a while, because I also believe certain other topics are higher priority. Also, my inability to provide whatever might be considered sufficient evidence does not indicate a complete lack of evidence. If you need this discussion immediately, go find a theology student and have at it.

3. We haven't been at this thread for a full 24 hours yet. I believe some discussions take time, and I also know that some might think I'm full of it for even coming onto this forum and really just want me to leave, and will use my unwillingness to provide what might be construed as all possible rationales for God's existence as a justification to write me off. And that's fine. But I'm not going anywhere.

I will generally state this: I believe that one can neither prove nor disprove God (else there'd be no such things as faith and hope which, interestingly, I wonder if such qualities are rational, as in, "point to the existence of hope, love, peace, patience, etc. please") and I think that's because God is, by definition, outside of the natural realm.

The key that some have a very difficult time dealing with is whether or not the super-natural can transcend the natural.

Furthermore, I would absolutely *love* to see evidence that something outside the natural realm *cannot* invade the natural realm. Ok, so that's blurring the line of disproving a negative. Oh well.
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08-12-2012, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 11:22 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 11:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  I will generally state this: I believe that one can neither prove nor disprove God (else there'd be no such things as faith and hope which, interestingly, I wonder if such qualities are rational, as in, "point to the existence of hope, love, peace, patience, etc. please") and I think that's because God is, by definition, outside of the natural realm.
Why do you believe in god if you can't prove his existence? Why do you make important decisions based on such a belief? And most importantly, why is it that you believe in Yahweh, but not in Vishnu?

(08-12-2012 11:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Furthermore, I would absolutely *love* to see evidence that something outside the natural realm *cannot* invade the natural realm. Ok, so that's blurring the line of disproving a negative. Oh well.
Not only that, but you are also shifting the burden of proof. In it's most basic form, this is an argument from ignorance.

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08-12-2012, 11:19 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
Again - you state a lot of things you "believe" - How do you know and come to the conclusion on these things?

How do you know.

You still haven't answered that.
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