Intro -- from a Christian :)
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08-12-2012, 05:48 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 11:19 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Again - you state a lot of things you "believe" - How do you know and come to the conclusion on these things?

How do you know.

You still haven't answered that.

You are correct. And I'm not going to immediately do so, because I've just shown up to this forum, and I'm intending to not show everything I know until the proper time.

Also, frankly, I don't care what anyone thinks about my mindset of not fully elaborating, because I didn't come here to convert, nor to be converted. I came here to engage in discussions on a hopefully regular basis, and see where things go from there.
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08-12-2012, 05:54 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 11:20 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:13 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  I will generally state this: I believe that one can neither prove nor disprove God (else there'd be no such things as faith and hope which, interestingly, I wonder if such qualities are rational, as in, "point to the existence of hope, love, peace, patience, etc. please") and I think that's because God is, by definition, outside of the natural realm.
You can keep your faith and your pathetic god (yes, if he existed, he would be the most horrible being to have ever existed), but hope, love and peace have nothing to do with a notion that has already run its course and outstayed its welcome, and is in its death throes. And yes, I meant the idea of god/s.

Somehow I hear the voice of Emperor Palpatine speaking when you say what you just said.

Anyway...

I want someone to rationally show me hope, love, peace, patience, etc. I don't care at this point why the rationale thereof; let's start with the basics.

I ask because I guarantee that most folks want to live with these qualities, since a world without them would be exactly like the kind of god that you describe.
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08-12-2012, 05:56 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:44 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:17 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Why do you believe in god if you can't prove his existence? Why do you make important decisions based on such a belief? And most importantly, why is it that you believe in Yahweh, but not in Vishnu?

Not only that, but you are also shifting the burden of proof. In it's most basic form, this is an argument from ignorance.

On why I believe in God in spite of the fact that I do not possess 100% certain statistical evidence for his existence: it is the same type of faith that allows me to type out this response while sitting on furniture and an iPad mini knowing that I cannot know for 100% that (1) the furniture will continue supporting me and that (2) the iPad mini will continue to operate sufficiently long enough to type in a response.

Furthermore, there are a great many things I do in life where I do not possess 100% certainty nor even have all the facts before me to proceed forward. In fact, this is always the challenge I have when deploying software; I can only test and verify to a certain deviation off the bell curve, and yet I'll never be 100% complete in everything I do. Yet, anyone at work can attest to the efficacy of the releases I've overseen.

Why the Bible's God and not another? For me, it's because he was a part of my background, and later in life, it was based on choice for a number of reasons (and no, I'm not elaborating now, maybe later).
The reason I do not believe in gods is the near certainty of their non-existence due to the absolutely no evidence that they do.

What evidence do you have?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 11:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:23 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Ok. Then, I'd ask you to tell me from whence morals come. They can't come from society, because society is a collection of individuals, and we're back to saying that one's moral law is better than another's, and there has to be justification for someone's morals to rank supreme in order for a civil society to determine that, for example, unjustified killing is murder and worthy of punishment.

I don't buy the non-absolutes concept. That would be akin to saying, "There are no absolutes, including this statement," which is by definition, irrational by being self-defeating.
Morals are a social contract for the proper functioning of society so that we can all get along. In part driven by evolution (which is why we feel 'ick' when e.g. someone shags his sister), in part driven by the changing needs of society over the millennia. You're saying there's some kind of absolute somewhere saying 'killing is wrong' ? Do you really think the universe cares if I hit someone else over the head with a rock ?

Forget the universe for the time being. Would you care if someone cut someone you love (is love rational?) into 20 pieces for no reason other than because your loved one found themselves at the edge of that person's blade?

Also, the concept that societies developed a moral code over so many thousands of years still doesn't explain said code's origin. Because if it did, then we need to look at the society that first allegedly started said code to better understand why said code was developed.

Wouldn't that be the rational thing to do?
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08-12-2012, 05:59 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:54 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:20 AM)Vera Wrote:  You can keep your faith and your pathetic god (yes, if he existed, he would be the most horrible being to have ever existed), but hope, love and peace have nothing to do with a notion that has already run its course and outstayed its welcome, and is in its death throes. And yes, I meant the idea of god/s.

Somehow I hear the voice of Emperor Palpatine speaking when you say what you just said.

Anyway...

I want someone to rationally show me hope, love, peace, patience, etc. I don't care at this point why the rationale thereof; let's start with the basics.

I ask because I guarantee that most folks want to live with these qualities, since a world without them would be exactly like the kind of god that you describe.
Those qualities and emotions exist in our brains and minds. If gods exist, they exist only in our minds.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2012, 06:08 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 11:42 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:34 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  a. Yes, and am.
b. Nope.
c. Short answer: Marriage ought to remain as it has been for eons. Otherwise, let the States decide.
d. Can't. Adultery is a heck of a lot tougher to prove than is, say, sodomy.

On abortion, I'd split the difference and make it regulated/prescribed. As I mentioned in another post, if I had to make the decision between my wife's life or my unborn child's, I'd default to my wife every time. That should provide a slight window as to my view.
You do realize that the first ever marriages were group marriages where guys CAN BE married to guys and so forth? Actually the first monogamous marriage was in Mesopotamia. It is quite logical to assume that monogamous marriage was EXTREMELY popular when the Genisis writer(s) (there were more than one) so they wrote it in as the normal state of marriage. Actually it is not hard to deduce that that's probably why the Yahwist created ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. Also, children could be married to adults back then, are you saying that we should have left it that way? The current version of marriage has been revised so much that it does not even resemble what "traditional marriages" were.

How about you just say it fucking nice and clear, you don't want same-sex marriage. Not that you think marriage should be left alone, but you just don't want gays to marry.

My question(s) to you: How is same-sex marriage affecting you? Why do you have to deny gays to LEGALLY marry. Why not just allow them to get LEGALLY married, but not recognize them as a married couple SPIRITUALLY?

People deserve to be with whomever they want, granted that the partner is consenting and of age.

You are absolutely right. I do not believe that same-sex marriage is morally justified, because I believe it hijacks the very definition of marriage. Instead, from a purely libertarian viewpoint, if same-sex couples want unions (or whatever phrase needs to be used), then said folks can knock themselves out.

Same-sex marriage affects me because it impacts on the effects of societal foundation. While this is not to say that every situation of same-sex parents nor single-parent households are necessarily detrimental to society, I prefer to look towards those institutions that produce the least amount of harm as possible on society.

I think it's great that there's an obvious human history regarding marriages in different forms. However, I speak as a married individual as well as seeing plenty of personally-related examples of single-parent households and the like.

Clearly, based on your emotionally-charged response, we may have to agree to disagree for the time being on this issue.
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08-12-2012, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 06:12 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:44 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  On why I believe in God in spite of the fact that I do not possess 100% certain statistical evidence for his existence: it is the same type of faith that allows me to type out this response while sitting on furniture and an iPad mini knowing that I cannot know for 100% that (1) the furniture will continue supporting me and that (2) the iPad mini will continue to operate sufficiently long enough to type in a response.

Furthermore, there are a great many things I do in life where I do not possess 100% certainty nor even have all the facts before me to proceed forward. In fact, this is always the challenge I have when deploying software; I can only test and verify to a certain deviation off the bell curve, and yet I'll never be 100% complete in everything I do. Yet, anyone at work can attest to the efficacy of the releases I've overseen.
What you're talking about is proof, something that exists only in mathematics. Do you think that there is any evidence for your particular god? If you don't, why do you still believe in him?

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08-12-2012, 06:15 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 02:27 PM)morondog Wrote:  BTW OP, um... have you seen how dead some people get? Like blown to smithereens dead. You think that something goes on after that ? Do you really believe that ? Because when I ask my Christian friends that question the answer is always... 'uncomfortable silence... yes, yes I do, because I have this book, see, and in the book it says so.' In your heart of hearts, you think this is *enough* to base your life around ?

Sorry, was this to me?

If so...

I've had 9 relatives -- including my dad -- die of various and assorted rather nasty deaths over the course of ten years (that wasn't the best decade of my life). I've seen death come very starkly, and I can say that deaths based on cancer are especially insidious.

And yes -- while the cartoon poked fun at the concept -- since the Bible speaks of life after death, I'm inclined to believe that there's a bit more to humans than solely the physical.
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08-12-2012, 06:17 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 05:44 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  On why I believe in God in spite of the fact that I do not possess 100% certain statistical evidence for his existence: it is the same type of faith that allows me to type out this response while sitting on furniture and an iPad mini knowing that I cannot know for 100% that (1) the furniture will continue supporting me and that (2) the iPad mini will continue to operate sufficiently long enough to type in a response.

Furthermore, there are a great many things I do in life where I do not possess 100% certainty nor even have all the facts before me to proceed forward. In fact, this is always the challenge I have when deploying software; I can only test and verify to a certain deviation off the bell curve, and yet I'll never be 100% complete in everything I do. Yet, anyone at work can attest to the efficacy of the releases I've overseen.

Why the Bible's God and not another? For me, it's because he was a part of my background, and later in life, it was based on choice for a number of reasons (and no, I'm not elaborating now, maybe later).
The reason I do not believe in gods is the near certainty of their non-existence due to the absolutely no evidence that they do.

What evidence do you have?

I'm going to save a response for another thread at some point. There's a lot on this forum to get to outside of my puny intro.
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08-12-2012, 06:22 PM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:58 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Also, the concept that societies developed a moral code over so many thousands of years still doesn't explain said code's origin. Because if it did, then we need to look at the society that first allegedly started said code to better understand why said code was developed.
Gods are not the origins of morality. Evolution explains it quite adequately. That old chestnut has been debunked long ago, in many places. You can't possibly be serious.




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