Intro -- from a Christian :)
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09-12-2012, 03:39 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:54 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:20 AM)Vera Wrote:  You can keep your faith and your pathetic god (yes, if he existed, he would be the most horrible being to have ever existed), but hope, love and peace have nothing to do with a notion that has already run its course and outstayed its welcome, and is in its death throes. And yes, I meant the idea of god/s.

Somehow I hear the voice of Emperor Palpatine speaking when you say what you just said.

Anyway...

I want someone to rationally show me hope, love, peace, patience, etc. I don't care at this point why the rationale thereof; let's start with the basics.

I ask because I guarantee that most folks want to live with these qualities, since a world without them would be exactly like the kind of god that you describe.
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly come up with anything stupider, vapider or triter than the homosexuality piece of crap...

Really, if the heaven all of you insist on deluding yourselves with, because your pathetic little egos cannot deal with the idea of your own mortality, existed and was going to be full of people like you, I'd rather I spent eternity being burnt alive (which is, after all, exactly how every loving parent would punish his beloved children that he loves above all things in the universe).

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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09-12-2012, 06:31 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(08-12-2012 05:58 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 11:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  Morals are a social contract for the proper functioning of society so that we can all get along. In part driven by evolution (which is why we feel 'ick' when e.g. someone shags his sister), in part driven by the changing needs of society over the millennia. You're saying there's some kind of absolute somewhere saying 'killing is wrong' ? Do you really think the universe cares if I hit someone else over the head with a rock ?

Forget the universe for the time being. Would you care if someone cut someone you love (is love rational?) into 20 pieces for no reason other than because your loved one found themselves at the edge of that person's blade?

Also, the concept that societies developed a moral code over so many thousands of years still doesn't explain said code's origin. Because if it did, then we need to look at the society that first allegedly started said code to better understand why said code was developed.

Wouldn't that be the rational thing to do?
Er... are you refuting what I said ?

Of course I care if someone I love is hurt by some asshole. That doesn't mean that that caring / love comes from giant invisible creator-of-universe being.

And yes, the origin of morals is somewhat of interest ? That doesn't count in any way as a strike against the idea that the moral code is a changing, evolving thing.

Entirely rational.

What would not be rational is "Book therefore Morals. Absolute morals. Except ignore the first bit. Apart from the bits of the first bit that I like about how homosexuality is bad."


If morals are absolute, how do you explain the utterly abhorrent crap that God commands in the Old Testament ?

God says 'Thou shalt not kill' then in the next breath 'those geezers are sinners. Kill 'em! Those assholes don't believe in me, kill 'em. That jackass *touched* my fuckin expensive ark, he deserves to DIE' ?
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09-12-2012, 11:08 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
Alrighty. It's been past the 24 hour mark and I owe this forum an apology and an explanation.

First, the apology. I lied. I said yesterday that I was essentially posting my final posting on this thread. I was wrong on that, and I ask for forgiveness. However, such asking is actually a trap of sorts for you. This is because forgiveness is a uniquely divine and irrational concept. This is because forgiveness completely cancels any debts owed; it does not fulfill any debt load. In other words, forgiveness treats the debt as if it never existed in the first place.

Like I said, therefore forgiveness is an utterly irrational but true concept.

Next, the explanation.

Many of you people have wanted me to provide a rational basis for why I believe the way I do. What you don't realize (or you do, but you're holding your cards close to your vest) is that this branch of apologetics is very large and contains lots of things to discuss, some things often built on top of the other. In other words, the rationale for common apologetics isn't going to be fully explained in one posting, nor in one thread on one forum. It's just that complicated. Heck, even attempts to explain the origins of the universe (which we all agree there was an origin point - yes, I think that's a safe assumption for we realists out there) take loads of time to go through.

Yet, I will attempt a beginning go at it here, this being an intro thread and all. However, you're not going to be surprised at my response, and I'm not going to be surprised at most reactions to what I'm about to say. Frankly, it's felt a bit like a firing squad coming onto this forum, almost as if to say that if I don't provide exactly the right answer for the right expectations (whatever those are), then I'm just an idiot. Of course, that would be a highly irrational response, and this thread has more than shown evidence of this deduction, but nobody ever claimed that you folks were perfect, either.

Do I have it about right so far?

So. I grew up in a Christian-based home where I was, by default, taught the Bible. I was taught to question what I read, and I was taught to treat what others thought about the a bible with a grain of salt until their beliefs could be verified against what I already know to be true.

So, why the Bible and not other things, religious or secular? Because of the years of study I've gone through as a lay person regarding the efficacy of the Bible itself. In other words, I'm presently as convinced that the Bible is inspired as from God as some of you people are convinced that other works of lierature or science explain to your satisfaction the opposite.

And therein lies the rub. I could sit here, reopen all the books in my small library that verifies the evidence for why I believe why I believe, we'll sit here going over sub-topic after sub-topic, and we'll end up back at square one.

I told you - I've been down this path with countless non-believers before, and the non-believer either gets closer to understanding Christianity or further away from it, and I end up getting frustrated because it feels like I wasted a bunch of time going back to square one.

Why is this? Because everything - everything - and I don't like making sweeping generalizations much - comes down to belief. And it doesn't matter the discipline; you're either going to believe what's in front of you or you're not. Yes, you can through all the scientific research and philosophical schools of thought at this notion, but at the end of the day, you still have to make a decision.

Of course, that's not the worst part. First is the decision, then is the responsibility of the consequences. You're now accountable to - at the very least - yourself for the belief decision you've just made. There's no getting around that, else you're a hypocrite and its doubtful that your decision was even real.

What's the bottom line? I very much have a rationale for my belief system. It starts with the Bible. And apologetics sites aren't exactly hiding information out there for debating. Everything's already out there, and I might even involve myself in a debate on the Bible from time to time. I just know ahead of time that such debates usually end in brick walls of defensiveness on either side.

Personally, I'm much more interested in understanding why people think the way they do (for the purposes of possible inclusion into my own belief system) than I am in converting anyone to my belief system.

So, once again, my apologies for doing something against what I originally claimed, and now you know why I've been hedging on what is otherwise an important question.

Make of this wall of text what you will.
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09-12-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(09-12-2012 11:08 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  This is because forgiveness is a uniquely divine and irrational concept.
You lost me right about here.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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09-12-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
Forgiveness can often be beneficial to for forgiver. Whether the forgiven has some sentimental value to the forgiver or he has seething that the forgiver might want. Uniquely divine concept? How? Some animals other than humans who have no concept of divine forgive other animals. On a similar front, they also comfort and care for others and others' young.

One can argue that without at least some sort of forgiveness, one can not have a tight knit society that animals like Chimps or humans have.

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09-12-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(09-12-2012 11:08 AM)Phil_GA Wrote:  Alrighty. It's been past the 24 hour mark and I owe this forum an apology and an explanation.

First, the apology. I lied. I said yesterday that I was essentially posting my final posting on this thread. I was wrong on that, and I ask for forgiveness. However, such asking is actually a trap of sorts for you. This is because forgiveness is a uniquely divine and irrational concept. This is because forgiveness completely cancels any debts owed; it does not fulfill any debt load. In other words, forgiveness treats the debt as if it never existed in the first place.

Like I said, therefore forgiveness is an utterly irrational but true concept.

Next, the explanation.

Many of you people have wanted me to provide a rational basis for why I believe the way I do. What you don't realize (or you do, but you're holding your cards close to your vest) is that this branch of apologetics is very large and contains lots of things to discuss, some things often built on top of the other. In other words, the rationale for common apologetics isn't going to be fully explained in one posting, nor in one thread on one forum. It's just that complicated. Heck, even attempts to explain the origins of the universe (which we all agree there was an origin point - yes, I think that's a safe assumption for we realists out there) take loads of time to go through.

Yet, I will attempt a beginning go at it here, this being an intro thread and all. However, you're not going to be surprised at my response, and I'm not going to be surprised at most reactions to what I'm about to say. Frankly, it's felt a bit like a firing squad coming onto this forum, almost as if to say that if I don't provide exactly the right answer for the right expectations (whatever those are), then I'm just an idiot. Of course, that would be a highly irrational response, and this thread has more than shown evidence of this deduction, but nobody ever claimed that you folks were perfect, either.

Do I have it about right so far?

So. I grew up in a Christian-based home where I was, by default, taught the Bible. I was taught to question what I read, and I was taught to treat what others thought about the a bible with a grain of salt until their beliefs could be verified against what I already know to be true.

So, why the Bible and not other things, religious or secular? Because of the years of study I've gone through as a lay person regarding the efficacy of the Bible itself. In other words, I'm presently as convinced that the Bible is inspired as from God as some of you people are convinced that other works of lierature or science explain to your satisfaction the opposite.

And therein lies the rub. I could sit here, reopen all the books in my small library that verifies the evidence for why I believe why I believe, we'll sit here going over sub-topic after sub-topic, and we'll end up back at square one.

I told you - I've been down this path with countless non-believers before, and the non-believer either gets closer to understanding Christianity or further away from it, and I end up getting frustrated because it feels like I wasted a bunch of time going back to square one.

Why is this? Because everything - everything - and I don't like making sweeping generalizations much - comes down to belief. And it doesn't matter the discipline; you're either going to believe what's in front of you or you're not. Yes, you can through all the scientific research and philosophical schools of thought at this notion, but at the end of the day, you still have to make a decision.

Of course, that's not the worst part. First is the decision, then is the responsibility of the consequences. You're now accountable to - at the very least - yourself for the belief decision you've just made. There's no getting around that, else you're a hypocrite and its doubtful that your decision was even real.

What's the bottom line? I very much have a rationale for my belief system. It starts with the Bible. And apologetics sites aren't exactly hiding information out there for debating. Everything's already out there, and I might even involve myself in a debate on the Bible from time to time. I just know ahead of time that such debates usually end in brick walls of defensiveness on either side.

Personally, I'm much more interested in understanding why people think the way they do (for the purposes of possible inclusion into my own belief system) than I am in converting anyone to my belief system.

So, once again, my apologies for doing something against what I originally claimed, and now you know why I've been hedging on what is otherwise an important question.

Make of this wall of text what you will.
You bring nothing new or interesting to the table.

I believe as I do based on evidence. You believe as you do based on faith.

Your belief is not rational - if you are happy with that, so be it. I find it pathetic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
So this is what it's like going the full-Xenu... Consider

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09-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Intro -- from a Christian :)
(09-12-2012 11:40 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  So this is what it's like going the full-Xenu... Consider

I thought there'd be more nudity involved. Consider

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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09-12-2012, 11:45 AM
RE: Intro -- from a Christian :)
(09-12-2012 11:43 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:40 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  So this is what it's like going the full-Xenu... Consider

I thought there'd be more nudity involved. Consider
Oh there is. You just haven't seen it yet. Drinking Beverage

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09-12-2012, 11:46 AM
Intro -- from a Christian :)
(09-12-2012 11:45 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:43 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I thought there'd be more nudity involved. Consider
Oh there is. You just haven't seen it yet. Drinking Beverage

Yet? Blink

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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