Introduce Yourself HERE!
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16-09-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(15-09-2012 11:03 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Just because you are seventy-one, doesn't make it more credible than if you were five.

True.

But the man does claim backup research. *Fringe* research it must be said.

If this has genuine evidence behind it, then why is it not mainstream science?

Also, sorry but
Quote:I'm inclined to think that those, who profess to have died and experienced NDE's, and those, with proven psychic insight cannot all be frauds.
doesn't fly with me. *I* am inclined to think that the entirety of NDE & psychic phenomena can be explained as a mixture of *charlatans* (mediums and those who can make a profit) and *true believers* (those out of whom a profit can be made).

Anyway, no person has "proven psychic insight".
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16-09-2012, 06:35 AM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(15-09-2012 08:56 PM)Vintagemusic Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 08:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  But there is no evidence that any of that has ever happened; there is no evidence of psychic anything; NDEs are explainable as neurological processes; there is no physics to support the existence of souls, reincarnation, life after death.

One should have an open mind, but not so open that one's brain falls out.

Chas,

May I suggest you Google "Anita Moorjani"? That you read any number of books on the subject of NDE, Psychic phenomena, most written by men and women of science, credentialed physicists, medical doctors, and NOT clergy.

If you're up to the challenge, take a look at Quantum physics and how it presents EVIDENCE of non-locality and independence of mind from brain activity.

Lastly, as one, who has survived 71 years on planet earth, I in fact experienced an Out of Body (Not an NDE) event at age 19. Simply left my body without apparent cause. My awareness became independent of time and space. Meaning, that my presence was wherever I thought, and at whatever "time" that came to mind. Long story, but ... proof to me, of something beyond the physical. Granted, not proof of God, not proof of an afterlife, but --- proof of Out Of Body dimension, although clearly, I was not dead at the time.

I have no problem with anti-religious conclusions. However, it's inconceivable that there is no purpose to life, to the universe, to love that I feel for animals (to a lesser degree for humans). Whatever the purpose to life may be, it doesn't have to be relevant to you, to me, or to we humans, but I sure hope it is!

HDG (Vintagemusic)

I have investigated. There is no credible evidence. Your internal experiences are not evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2012, 08:42 AM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(16-09-2012 01:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 11:03 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Just because you are seventy-one, doesn't make it more credible than if you were five.

True.

But the man does claim backup research. *Fringe* research it must be said.

If this has genuine evidence behind it, then why is it not mainstream science?

Also, sorry but
Quote:I'm inclined to think that those, who profess to have died and experienced NDE's, and those, with proven psychic insight cannot all be frauds.
doesn't fly with me. *I* am inclined to think that the entirety of NDE & psychic phenomena can be explained as a mixture of *charlatans* (mediums and those who can make a profit) and *true believers* (those out of whom a profit can be made).

Anyway, no person has "proven psychic insight".

Morondog,

Two things: First, it's clear that you have not read the scientific studies regarding NDE/OOBE, etc. You simply choose not to "believe" whatever evidence exists of NDE/OOBE, parallel dimensions, life after death, etc. Nor do I "believe" anything on faith alone. I either KNOW, or I don't KNOW something -- "belief" is not in my vocabulary!

As for your statement about relevance of my being age 71; agreed, age alone doesn't make one's point of view more valid than pronouncements of one of a younger (or older) age. However, age usually is significant in allowing intellectual growth of one with an open mind, keen intellect, and lust for discovering truth via scientific, or "other" verifiable method of study. No offense, but a logical conclusion to be drawn from your age thesis might be: one may as well give it up (stop learning) at age 5, cause by the time he/she becomes age 71, his wisdom, insight, knowledge, and authority will be no greater and significant than it was at an earlier age, right?

As for whether my personal experience of an OOBE at age 19 is relevant in proving alternate reality, mind-body independence of one another, life after death: agreed, my internal experience proves nothing. That's precisely why I am a skeptic/agnostic, rather than an outright atheist. Unlike those who reject religion (as I do) and take on a newfound dogmatic approach: Atheism (as I do not), it simply makes no sense to me to go from one form of dogma (religion) to another (atheism).

The problem I find with Atheism is that it is a know-it-all, dogmatic assertion of No God, No Afterlife, No Meaning to the Universe, to life here on earth beyond the mundane joy of breathing and satisfying our senses. Perhaps. But, as an Agnostic/skeptic, I reject the dogmatic temptation to throw in the towel and say that Atheism is the answer to all mysteries of the mind and the universe.

I love the notion that Atheism tells religion to go to hell! But, I cannot abide the shortcomings of Atheism, in that it rushes to a conclusion that puts an end to inquiry into the obvious big questions of life and death, which remain on the table.

Bottom line: I'm still searching for answers, and the only way I know to proceed is with my mind, via scientific inquiry. I agree that many, if not most psychics are charlatans, although I've encountered a few, who at best are the real thing; at worse, are some of the greatest "magicians" on the planet!

As for your "Mainstream Science" argument --- that notion alone, is not a very scientific way of assessing truth, or validity. What's popular, or "mainstream" is irrelevant to whether a theory will ultimately become mainstream, valid, and irrefutable fact.

I appreciate your push-back on any notions I put forth, and I respect your point of view.

HDG (Vintagemusic)
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16-09-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(16-09-2012 08:42 AM)Vintagemusic Wrote:  Two things: First, it's clear that you have not read the scientific studies regarding NDE/OOBE, etc. You simply choose not to "believe" whatever evidence exists of NDE/OOBE, parallel dimensions, life after death, etc. Nor do I "believe" anything on faith alone. I either KNOW, or I don't KNOW something -- "belief" is not in my vocabulary!

I have read a lot of skeptical articles, but it is true that I have never read an original study. Does this mean that because I myself have never read the research surrounding why the Earth goes round the Sun I must therefore entertain with all seriousness any person who decides that the Sun goes round the Earth, until such time as I do read the original papers?


Quote:As for your statement about relevance of my being age 71; agreed, age alone doesn't make one's point of view more valid than pronouncements of one of a younger (or older) age. However, age usually is significant in allowing intellectual growth of one with an open mind, keen intellect, and lust for discovering truth via scientific, or "other" verifiable method of study. No offense, but a logical conclusion to be drawn from your age thesis might be: one may as well give it up (stop learning) at age 5, cause by the time he/she becomes age 71, his wisdom, insight, knowledge, and authority will be no greater and significant than it was at an earlier age, right?

I'll take that as addressed to the originator of the statement about the relevance of your age Wink

Quote:The problem I find with Atheism is that it is a know-it-all, dogmatic assertion of No God, No Afterlife, No Meaning to the Universe, to life here on earth beyond the mundane joy of breathing and satisfying our senses. Perhaps. But, as an Agnostic/skeptic, I reject the dogmatic temptation to throw in the towel and say that Atheism is the answer to all mysteries of the mind and the universe.

I do not deny that NDE's might have something behind them. I just don't accept "afterlife" as a valid explanation without further evidence. And rest assured if there were further evidence it would be in every newspaper in the world. Ergo... since it is not, and since repeated studies under controlled conditions have failed to come up with anything supernatural, one can perhaps modify the statement that "the afterlife does not exist" to the statement "as far as we know, the afterlife is extremely unlikely to exist, at least as described by the true believers".

Quote:Bottom line: I'm still searching for answers, and the only way I know to proceed is with my mind, via scientific inquiry. I agree that many, if not most psychics are charlatans, although I've encountered a few, who at best are the real thing; at worse, are some of the greatest "magicians" on the planet!

Too trusting IMO, but each to his own Smile.

Quote:As for your "Mainstream Science" argument --- that notion alone, is not a very scientific way of assessing truth, or validity. What's popular, or "mainstream" is irrelevant to whether a theory will ultimately become mainstream, valid, and irrefutable fact.

In fact it is scientific. Because no person has time to evaluate each individual truth claim on its merits alone, we trust the scientific establishment to disseminate knowledge which we have no expertise to evaluate.

I apologise for climbing into you without saying hello Smile Hello. Welcome to TTA.
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16-09-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(16-09-2012 09:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:42 AM)Vintagemusic Wrote:  Two things: First, it's clear that you have not read the scientific studies regarding NDE/OOBE, etc. You simply choose not to "believe" whatever evidence exists of NDE/OOBE, parallel dimensions, life after death, etc. Nor do I "believe" anything on faith alone. I either KNOW, or I don't KNOW something -- "belief" is not in my vocabulary!

I have read a lot of skeptical articles, but it is true that I have never read an original study. Does this mean that because I myself have never read the research surrounding why the Earth goes round the Sun I must therefore entertain with all seriousness any person who decides that the Sun goes round the Earth, until such time as I do read the original papers?


Quote:As for your statement about relevance of my being age 71; agreed, age alone doesn't make one's point of view more valid than pronouncements of one of a younger (or older) age. However, age usually is significant in allowing intellectual growth of one with an open mind, keen intellect, and lust for discovering truth via scientific, or "other" verifiable method of study. No offense, but a logical conclusion to be drawn from your age thesis might be: one may as well give it up (stop learning) at age 5, cause by the time he/she becomes age 71, his wisdom, insight, knowledge, and authority will be no greater and significant than it was at an earlier age, right?

I'll take that as addressed to the originator of the statement about the relevance of your age Wink

Quote:The problem I find with Atheism is that it is a know-it-all, dogmatic assertion of No God, No Afterlife, No Meaning to the Universe, to life here on earth beyond the mundane joy of breathing and satisfying our senses. Perhaps. But, as an Agnostic/skeptic, I reject the dogmatic temptation to throw in the towel and say that Atheism is the answer to all mysteries of the mind and the universe.

I do not deny that NDE's might have something behind them. I just don't accept "afterlife" as a valid explanation without further evidence. And rest assured if there were further evidence it would be in every newspaper in the world. Ergo... since it is not, and since repeated studies under controlled conditions have failed to come up with anything supernatural, one can perhaps modify the statement that "the afterlife does not exist" to the statement "as far as we know, the afterlife is extremely unlikely to exist, at least as described by the true believers".

Quote:Bottom line: I'm still searching for answers, and the only way I know to proceed is with my mind, via scientific inquiry. I agree that many, if not most psychics are charlatans, although I've encountered a few, who at best are the real thing; at worse, are some of the greatest "magicians" on the planet!

Too trusting IMO, but each to his own Smile.

Quote:As for your "Mainstream Science" argument --- that notion alone, is not a very scientific way of assessing truth, or validity. What's popular, or "mainstream" is irrelevant to whether a theory will ultimately become mainstream, valid, and irrefutable fact.

In fact it is scientific. Because no person has time to evaluate each individual truth claim on its merits alone, we trust the scientific establishment to disseminate knowledge which we have no expertise to evaluate.

I apologise for climbing into you without saying hello Smile Hello. Welcome to TTA.

Morondog,

No need to apologize for ... not saying hello. The fact that you chose to respond to my post is "hello" enough, I think. Moreover, it's the discussion and exchange of ideas that's important, moreso than who I am, or whether I or you said "hello", etc.

Okay, so believe it, or not, I think we actually agree on most notions bantered back and forth here. At least so, with respect to the need for further inquiry (of a demonstrable, scientific nature) to the big questions which led us to this forum.

Now, concerning your statement: "And rest assured if there were further evidence it would be in every newspaper in the world. " I definitely do not agree with this conclusion! Au contraire, most newspapers, TV news media, and the like are beholden to RELIGION. I'm speaking of the media in the U.S., as my TV doesn't receive news broadcasts, except domestically, hi, hi!

The risk of going up against religion in the U.S. is just too great, as evidenced by the fact that our political leaders would never stand a chance of winning election, or holding office, except that he/she demonstrates a "God-Bless-America" conviction. Pathetic! Shame!

Imagine the devastation religious institutions would suffer, were proof contrary to dogma given voice by science, the media, academia. Meaning, proof incapable of veto by political, or religious propaganda. Religion (in the U.S.) is not about to relinquish its control over the hearts and minds of its brainwashed victims.

"Authorities", whose study and research of NDE/OOBE/Paranormal phenomena responsible for my remaining a skeptic/agnostic are: Dr. Stuart Hameroff; Dr. Pim Van Lommel; Dr. Raymond Moody; Elizabeth Kubler Ross; Anita Moorjani; Dr. Eben Alexander, to name but a few. These prominent, rational thinkers have too much to lose, to simply lie, or promote bogus science. My reading of their research, experience, and analysis reaffirms the notion that "If it happened once, it can and very likely will happen again". Keep in mind, I do not BELIEVE anything on faith. I either KNOW, or I don't KNOW. Which is why I remain excited about the above-named researcher/experiencer findings, beyond the level of considering myself a KNOWING Atheist.

Agnostic, that's me.

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16-09-2012, 12:55 PM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(16-09-2012 10:20 AM)Vintagemusic Wrote:  Now, concerning your statement: "And rest assured if there were further evidence it would be in every newspaper in the world. " I definitely do not agree with this conclusion! Au contraire, most newspapers, TV news media, and the like are beholden to RELIGION.

You think that if verifiable evidence of the so called paranormal was found *any* newspaper would dare not to publish? The story would be worth millions. If not in the US, then in the UK or somewhere where secular society is dominant it would be huge news. Such a story would be impossible to quash, especially with the glorious instrument of freedom that is the internet.

PS: we usually reserve this thread for introductions, so I suggest you make an actual thread to discuss these ideas, as they are interesting (to a certain extent Tongue ) and you know your background stuff, so it could be a good discussion.
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16-09-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
I'm 16, and i'm from Ireland. I'm an atheist and the rest of my family are catholics. My parents won't accept my atheism and this makes me so upset. They tell me to cop on and stuff. I really don't know what to do. I feel like i'm a disgrace to them. Help
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16-09-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
Greeting and salutations! Im a 38 year old mother of three, wife of one, and former Southern Baptist/Assembly of God slug. I've followed the youtube videos The Thinking Atheist has put out over the past few months, and am happy to find a forum where my opinions and thoughts may actually be listened to and discussed instead of instantly exorcised. Thank you, whoever started this for your courage.

My husband has a site called atheology.us please check it out![/font]
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16-09-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
(16-09-2012 01:54 PM)brentsalli Wrote:  Greeting and salutations! Im a 38 year old mother of three, wife of one, and former Southern Baptist/Assembly of God slug. I've followed the youtube videos The Thinking Atheist has put out over the past few months, and am happy to find a forum where my opinions and thoughts may actually be listened to and discussed instead of instantly exorcised. Thank you, whoever started this for your courage.

My husband has a site called atheology.us please check it out![/font]

(16-09-2012 01:52 PM)Stuckinthemudx Wrote:  I'm 16, and i'm from Ireland. I'm an atheist and the rest of my family are catholics. My parents won't accept my atheism and this makes me so upset. They tell me to cop on and stuff. I really don't know what to do. I feel like i'm a disgrace to them. Help

Welcome to our humble abode!

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16-09-2012, 09:32 PM
RE: Introduce Yourself HERE!
Hi everyone, my name is Jeremy and I'm 30 yrs old. Originally from NW Indiana, I moved to the gulf coast of Florida a little over 2 yrs ago with my girlfriend Amie. Just recently I've made the decision, after much research, that I'm an atheist. For quite a few years I used to just tell people that I'm not religious, but now I'm putting a label on it. I guess I never really cared about religion from a young age, never took the bible stories literally, never put much thought into there being a god. My family is religious(Christian), but I was never forced to go to church, or go through any of those religious ceremonies(baptism). The only two people who know about my atheism are my girlfriend(accepts it) and my best friend(is indifferent). I don't know how my family will respond once I finally let it out of the bag, but I'm not too worried about it. I hoped to use this forum to have a place where I can talk to like minded people about atheism, and share my challenges and frustrations with being an atheist and religion in general. Can't wait to start posting!
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