Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
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14-12-2014, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2014 03:05 PM by tear151.)
RE: Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
(14-12-2014 02:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-12-2014 02:13 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I speak of a perceived dualism not an actual, a perceived ghost in the machine which is what you would call your sense of self, this ghost doesn't exist, that's why it's an analogy for the experience, not what it actually is.

In the future, I would recommend not using a bad analogy to make your point of disproving that very same bad analogy.

(14-12-2014 02:13 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Denying your basic motivation is also an equally transparent motive to deny your basic motivation to appear somehow more complex.

HAHAHAHA NO U.

That trivially is more complex, requiring, necessarily, a degree of self-awareness and self-actualisation. A dog cannot go on a hunger strike.

Like I said, if your point is just that will is emergent, illusory, or both - yes, and? So what?

I fail to see how the fact it's more complex means it's somehow higher up and more valuable, yes, the will to be unique, to be free... it's quite sophisticated, but still nothing that proposes a challenge.

The will is a product of the sub conscious mind, the conscious mind acts rationally and makes sense of data from the world to achieve it, for example, i don't consciously choose to be angry, but i seemingly do seem to consciously choose to punch someone in the face thinking it will satisfy my rage.

The presence of less or more, or more surface level or basic cognition does not change the fundamental system at play.

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14-12-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
(14-12-2014 03:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I fail to see how the fact it's more complex means it's somehow higher up and more valuable...

Let me know where I used the words "higher up" or "valuable"; I certainly can't recall having done so...
(now, since you have no real will, I can't rationally blame you for misrepresenting me, but then again, I can't control my reaction either, so fair cop)

(14-12-2014 03:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  ... yes, the will to be unique, to be free... it's quite sophisticated, but still nothing that proposes a challenge.

The will is a product of the sub conscious mind, the conscious mind acts rationally and makes sense of data from the world to achieve it, for example, i don't consciously choose to be angry, but i seemingly do seem to consciously choose to punch someone in the face thinking it will satisfy my rage.

The presence of less or more, or more surface level or basic cognition does not change the fundamental system.

To even speak of a "conscious" and "subconscious" is a serious oversimplification. Our minds are a messy aggregation of processes - there is no unity.

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14-12-2014, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2014 03:16 PM by tear151.)
RE: Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
(14-12-2014 03:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-12-2014 03:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  I fail to see how the fact it's more complex means it's somehow higher up and more valuable...

Let me know where I used the words "higher up" or "valuable"; I certainly can't recall having done so...
(now, since you have no real will, I can't rationally blame you for misrepresenting me, but then again, I can't control my reaction either, so fair cop)

(14-12-2014 03:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  ... yes, the will to be unique, to be free... it's quite sophisticated, but still nothing that proposes a challenge.

The will is a product of the sub conscious mind, the conscious mind acts rationally and makes sense of data from the world to achieve it, for example, i don't consciously choose to be angry, but i seemingly do seem to consciously choose to punch someone in the face thinking it will satisfy my rage.

The presence of less or more, or more surface level or basic cognition does not change the fundamental system.

To even speak of a "conscious" and "subconscious" is a serious oversimplification. Our minds are a messy aggregation of processes - there is no unity.

If you are making no such claims what relevance does

"That trivially is more complex, requiring, necessarily, a degree of self-awareness and self-actualisation. A dog cannot go on a hunger strike."

and no, the mind is very complex, but the split between conscious and un/subconscious is pretty well accepted by modern psychology.

Though if you want to say that I chose to be hungry, or I choose to desire anything... I'd love to see your explanation.

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14-12-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(14-12-2014 03:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Let me know where I used the words "higher up" or "valuable"; I certainly can't recall having done so...
(now, since you have no real will, I can't rationally blame you for misrepresenting me, but then again, I can't control my reaction either, so fair cop)


To even speak of a "conscious" and "subconscious" is a serious oversimplification. Our minds are a messy aggregation of processes - there is no unity.

If you are making no such claims what relevance does

"That trivially is more complex, requiring, necessarily, a degree of self-awareness and self-actualisation. A dog cannot go on a hunger strike."

That doesn't imply value. You pretended it did. That was my point.

(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  and no, the mind is very complex, but the split between conscious and un/subconscious is pretty well accepted by modern psychology.

The terms are recognised in a very broad sense; simplistically dualistic structures are not. There is no coherent empirical definition of either term.

See here, here, here, here, et cetera ad nauseum.

(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Though if you want to say that I chose to be hungry, or I choose to desire anything... I'd love to see your explanation.

I did not say that. I simply do not follow how you drew that from any of my statements.

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14-12-2014, 03:45 PM
RE: Inverting Plato's chariot: An analogy of will and conscience for the scientific age
(14-12-2014 03:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If you are making no such claims what relevance does

"That trivially is more complex, requiring, necessarily, a degree of self-awareness and self-actualisation. A dog cannot go on a hunger strike."

That doesn't imply value. You pretended it did. That was my point.

(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  and no, the mind is very complex, but the split between conscious and un/subconscious is pretty well accepted by modern psychology.

The terms are recognised in a very broad sense; simplistically dualistic structures are not. There is no coherent empirical definition of either term.

See here, here, here, here, et cetera ad nauseum.

(14-12-2014 03:11 PM)tear151 Wrote:  Though if you want to say that I chose to be hungry, or I choose to desire anything... I'd love to see your explanation.

I did not say that. I simply do not follow how you drew that from any of my statements.

It appears as in my original thread, I've poorly explained myself... I might as well leave it here.

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